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  #26  
Old 09-06-2005, 05:41 AM
GaryR52 GaryR52 is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

Pilato's process is the lost wax process, Arrow. Not to be confused with what we've been talking about here. In the lost wax process, conventional bronze casting is used; the wax is burnt out when the molten bronze is poured. This is not the same thing as sintering bronze powder suspended in wax. The former is a traditional foundry process, the latter avoids this foundry process by direct modeling or carving in a bronze/wax material which is then fired in a kiln to produce a bronze sculpture. This process eliminates the costs of using a foundry, as anyone with a kiln can do it.

Gary

Last edited by GaryR52 : 09-06-2005 at 05:45 AM.
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  #27  
Old 09-06-2005, 06:11 AM
Arrow Arrow is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

Somehow the two are related:

"vacant mold with powderized metal that turns to bronze"

Either the suspended polymer sintering evolved into the "Pilato Process" or vice versa? Not sure. Mark Pilato has the aesmat company referanced on his site resume:

"1998 Inventor of the Pilato Process ( a new process for casting bronze). http://aesmat.com/company.htm"

I'll have to do some more web snooping.
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  #28  
Old 09-06-2005, 07:19 AM
GaryR52 GaryR52 is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

I didn't see the reference to "powdered bronze." I'm not sure exactly what he's doing, but it does say "lost wax process" and that is not the same thing as what we've been discussing. The lost wax process of bronze casting is an ancient technique, nothing new about it, and it certainly didn't originate with Pilato. Whatever it is he's doing seems to be a variation on that, but it doesn't sound like the same process we've been talking about here. There is no bronze pouring involved at all in this process, unlike the lost wax method, in which there is. The whole advantage of this process is the elimination of the bronze pour.

Gary
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  #29  
Old 09-06-2005, 03:22 PM
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bluedogshuz bluedogshuz is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

I called the number on the web site for Aesthetic Materials and it has been disconnected. I assume they are no longer in business. I am very interested in the process of suspending bronze and then firing so I guess I will start doing a process search.
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  #30  
Old 09-06-2005, 07:14 PM
Arrow Arrow is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

The part of the process that may make the sintered bronze clay quite difficult is the possible need for a reducing atmosphere inside the kiln/oven. To control the oxidation and binder burnout.
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  #31  
Old 09-06-2005, 08:26 PM
GaryR52 GaryR52 is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

Sounds like a good idea, Blue. As soon as I can, I'm going to try my own experiment with it. One word of caution, though; this is basically the same as silver clay, or "Precious Metal Clay," and one thing I've learned about that is that you have to watch the kiln closely because you don't want to exceed the sintering temperature and melt the metal, which would ruin your piece. Some trial and error experimentation with ratios of bronze powder to wax binder, as well as with temperature and perhaps different binder mixtures would seem to be in order.

Gary
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  #32  
Old 09-06-2005, 08:29 PM
Arrow Arrow is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

Good pics of a Microwave Sintering Furnace

http://www.linn.de/mikrohaus01.htm
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  #33  
Old 09-06-2005, 09:10 PM
GaryR52 GaryR52 is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

Pretty much the same as the one discussed earlier, in another thread. The difference is the material used for the refractory chamber within the oven. Great for jewelry, but pretty limited for application to sculpture, as the space available is way too small for anything I'd want to do.

Gary
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  #34  
Old 09-11-2005, 03:47 PM
ERB ERB is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

Hi Gary,
The sculpture "cast" by AESMAT in State College PA was a very finely powdered bronze mixed with some kind of wax. It was pourable into a rubber mold when hot and hardened into a substance very much like almost dry potters clay. It was carvable and could be patched. They sold blocks of the material that you could carve into a sculpture or medal. The sintering was done in a kiln and the temp. was very critical. Clients were not allowed to see the equipment or the process. The shrinkage was less than 10%. The pieces turned out great. They produced several pieces for me and I had many more for them to do when they stopped doing business. They didn't go out of business for lack of work or money.
Dick
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  #35  
Old 09-11-2005, 05:18 PM
GaryR52 GaryR52 is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

Sounds like what I want to do, alright. Too bad they're not doing it anymore. Do you know of anyone else who is?

Gary
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  #36  
Old 09-11-2005, 08:36 PM
ERB ERB is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

Hi,
Sorry no. I wish I did.
Dick
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  #37  
Old 06-24-2006, 09:40 PM
mark pilato mark pilato is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

Hi my name is Mark Pilato, i invented the Pilato Process. If you have any questions i can help. I would love to see more artist use it. The company that bought it from me was not interested in the art part just the manufacturing end of it. I have it back and I will share any info you want. Here is a link to chess sets I used the Pilato process, It would have been very hard to get the detail casting them plus I also can weld plus patina also the cost is about 50.00 and one night in a Kiln. Oh and did I mention the work on the bronze is about ten minutes a piece when they come out, no vents gates, sprues, sand blasting, and the patinas are perfect.
http://www.pilatostudios.com/pages/markChessSets.html
all the best,
Mark
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  #38  
Old 06-24-2006, 11:12 PM
Arrow Arrow is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

Can you describe the process and components in detail? Or are you retaining proprietary control? Which is understandable.


P.S. Thanks for finding the forum As you can see from the past posts there are several people craving info on your process.

Last edited by Arrow : 06-24-2006 at 11:26 PM.
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  #39  
Old 06-25-2006, 10:20 AM
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HappySculpting HappySculpting is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

Hi Mark,

Sounds like a very interesting process and I would be grateful too if you could describe more about it. Sounds like one of the biggest differences is that you use a bronze powder mixture that fills the mold and this cast is then fired to solidify the whole piece. So there aren't any sprues etc.

I have a kiln and wondered what temperature you have to fire the bronze powder to?

Where does a person get this bronze mixture that is poured in? What are the ingredients? The mixture is room temperature when poured in, right?

Since a lot of us use bronze foundries, I'm sure there is much interest on a more hands on approach that we can do ourselves to reduce costs. Thanks for offering your expertise!
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  #40  
Old 06-25-2006, 12:25 PM
mark pilato mark pilato is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

very cool, the process is very simple but also very sensitive, it took me and two other scientists two years to perfect. I am dyslexic so I apologize for spelling. I created the process in my living room because I was always disappointed with the finished product of a lost wax. Don't get me wrong I use the lost wax process today and for larger works its the only way but for smaller works, studies, chess pieces, and any size relief this process is perfect and who knows what you will find and the future will bring . I have been casting work since I was a boy and I had my own foundry when I was 19. Today I use Tallix to cast my work. I invented this process so that people could use it. It is heaven if you are a sculptor, to be able to sculpt in the green clay or bronze then to put it into the kiln and wala the piece is done exactly as you wanted it. To sculpt bronze with a tool not Air or chisel. Sounds to good to be true. Okay enough excitement lets get dirty. So first you need to buy some bronze powder with out oxides, also make sure its variable sizes, from very fine to medium. this is the cheapest way to buy it and by chance the only way to do it. secret # 1. Like a good stone wall it takes interlocking pieces to make it strong. Bare with me. Next you need a kiln with a computer so that you may ramp and hold. Plus you need a stainless steal container that will fit into your kiln leaving a 2 to 3 inch space from brick. You can buy them on line. Okay I am not going to give it all to you right now. But i will, I have to get ready for my daughters 6th birthday party. Here some things to think about. A wax pot, basically a crock pot, A foot massager/ vibrating table. A second hand vacuum furnace 50.00 at salvage yard, oh a very important component, Nitrogen. 25 pounds pressure. Can get at most welding supply companies. 345 c burn out temp then 900-degrees for two hours then cool down 12 hours. Okay tell me what is missing and I will give you the rest. How do the pieces hold their form? Were does the wax go? What is the mix ratio wax and bronze powder. and what do you need the massager for? Like I said I will give it all to you but first i want you to think about it and see if you can come up with it on your own. With this process i could complete a chess set from the rubber mold to finished bronze in 3 days and give it to a scientist when I was done and he or she would say it's cast. how is that possible to take a three week process and shrink it down two three days.
here is my web site
pilatostudios.com

All the best,
Mark
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  #41  
Old 06-25-2006, 03:28 PM
Arrow Arrow is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

Does the bronze-wax model require a refractory shell? Or does the binder/wax formula have adequate holding properties all by itself, during the burnout.

My guess on the binder would be a mix of corn starch and some microcrystalline wax??

Have you tried the process with aluminum?

Last edited by Arrow : 06-25-2006 at 03:41 PM.
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  #42  
Old 06-25-2006, 06:32 PM
mark pilato mark pilato is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

I like the way you think, and i like the idea of adding something to the wax. But check this out - so say you have a can just bigger then your sculpture and in that can you place your sculpture - part wax, part bronze and part Empoline a very small part Empoline say 2%. The sculpture is surrounded by a powder that can be re used. this powder absorbs the wax when the kiln is ramped up to its first hold. After wax is pulled out into the powder the kiln is ramped up next level in heat. The wax burn off is exited out a tube where a flame waits to finish the job so that there is no trace of black smoke. What is the powder that can be used? Its white and can be packed by tapping the can onto a level surface. Its very light but also dense. This is the key. this is what gives you the freedom to create any kind of detail. Not a slurry, no dry time, just powder a one step deal. a six inch piece takes 2 minutes to prepare and its ready for the kiln. Small work can be placed on a kiln shelf and just covered with the stuff. We have done over 100 medallions in one run. All came out perfect. So the piece is heated up to a temperature in the can so that the wax can escape into the powder. then after say an hour the kiln is heated to the second hold so that the wax can be burned out. Then the Kiln is ramped up to it's last temp a very precise temp so that it can be sintered but not melted and then let cool. The cans are then dumped and the powder re used. Then the pieces are cleaned in water or bead blasted for a second or so. then if need be polished to any finish and then patina. The best way to know what the temp of the pieces is is to have a can in the coolest place in he kiln filled with the white powder and in that can a pyrometer to gage the temp. How do i put a picture up of the kiln and what it all looks like, this will give you a better idea. The best way to weld is with tig. Again whats your guess on white powder?
All the best,
Mark
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  #43  
Old 06-25-2006, 06:59 PM
mark pilato mark pilato is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

here are some links
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg16321962.900.html
http://www.cisp.psu.edu/pdf/NL-Fall05.pdf
I think i can do this in a micrwave. I am going to give it a go and I will let you know.
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  #44  
Old 06-25-2006, 07:51 PM
Arrow Arrow is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

I'm afraid your pdf file link told exactly what the white powder is, aluminium oxide.

Unless you have modifed the process since. I was going to guess fused silica.

What is Empoline?

So if I outline the steps as the following:
1. Mix up green bronze and binder clay body.
2. Sculpt disired shape.
3. Pack green sculpture in a alumina powder container using vibration table.
4. Wax burnout, ramping phase up to 653 F.

This is where I'm not sure what happens next.
Does the alumina powder and sculpture go into a nitrogen charged furnace for sintering?

Or does the burnout stage pre-bind the object enough to remove the powder support?
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  #45  
Old 06-25-2006, 08:35 PM
mark pilato mark pilato is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

oops, would you have got there on your own? also the bronze / wax is melted together then poured into rubber molds. the clay is an altogether different process. I have done both. The best way for me to show is to draft a picture for you. The Kiln is a nitrogen charged furnace. from the time the kiln starts Nitrogen is introduced, when pieces are sintered after they have reached temp the Nitrogen can be turned off and kiln can cool down. The key is the the furnace. sometimes the simplest answers are the hardest to find. when we finally found all the answers and got a chess set it was like we landed on the moon and the answer the one detail that alluded us, was in furnace design. I figured it out after two days of maddening reexamination when I was just about to give up, it just came to me and the first sintered bronze chess set was introduced to the world. How do I put a picture up so anyone can see and try? Its is perfect for schools who have a limited budget and for artist who want to cast at home. Epoline is a very hard binder. I am currently creating a new chess set and I plan on sintering the edition. the king is 16 inches and the set has an edition of 12. There really is no other way to do it. when i do this I am making a movie showing the process so anyone can use it. It will be on my web site. When I sold my share of the company I signed a five year contract and was not aloud to use, Now that five years are up and i have it back i am going to share with who ever wants to try, for free.
all the best,
Mark
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  #46  
Old 06-25-2006, 10:22 PM
Arrow Arrow is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

I use http://photobucket.com for free image hosting.
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  #47  
Old 06-25-2006, 11:51 PM
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Candice Lee Candice Lee is offline
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Bronze-Wax Ratio?

Beautiful process, Mark! Id like to try it. Is there a specific necessary ratio of bronze powder to wax in making the sculpture?

Candice
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  #48  
Old 06-26-2006, 08:55 AM
mark pilato mark pilato is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

okay, what I am going to do is make a document to share with anyone who wants to try. I am going to get in touch with Rand German, and my other scientist friends who also helped me in this process so that they also can have a chance to share. We all had a dream to change the world of art, as silly as that sounds I still believe its the future and its up to the artist to find the way. I have been very lucky in my life sculpting for a living finding myself in collections with Piccaso Moore,Nevelson and I have seen some amazing things when it comes to art and what lives in peoples hearts. I know how important a process like this would be to people who can not pay the foundries. To be able to sculpt the bronze is a dream come true. what is your web page? I like to know who I am talking with. My e-mail is sculpting2000@catskill.net my web page pilatostudios.com.
all the best,
Mark
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  #49  
Old 06-26-2006, 09:02 AM
mark pilato mark pilato is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

Candice- just got to your web Page, great sculpture and I love your Philosophy. Yea you would dig this stuff, you would go wild with the form carving and finding deep places.
all the best,
Mark
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  #50  
Old 06-26-2006, 01:17 PM
Dup-Csapo Reka Dup-Csapo Reka is offline
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Re: Bronze Clay?

Did anyone think about that wax is burning out untill 300 degrees( Celsius), and bronz, copper and other stuff which are in bronz we do use fuse at 900-1000??What will bronze do untill you reach this degree .Set still and wait?

I cast for 10 years , and still considering myself an apprentice , but this whole thing sounds to me absurd.

Or maybee I missed the point??
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