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  #1  
Old 04-18-2011, 02:33 PM
merelees merelees is offline
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budget cuts

Looks like England is suffering from financial cut-backs as well, potentially effecting budding Damien Hirsts.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/cu...t-schools-cuts

Really, how necessary is formal art schooling? Do you think you can be just as successful as an artist without any type of degree?
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  #2  
Old 04-18-2011, 05:06 PM
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Re: budget cuts

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Really, how necessary is formal art schooling? Do you think you can be just as successful as an artist without any type of degree?
Yep, but defining success is another issue.
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  #3  
Old 04-18-2011, 07:06 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: budget cuts

being a successful artist with or without a degree is pretty much luck and hard work. Or maybe a bolt of insight and a line of credit at the mercerized foreskin outlet
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:27 PM
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Re: budget cuts

G: "a line of credit at the mercerized foreskin outlet"

I have no idea what this means? "To mercer" Is that a verb?
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  #5  
Old 04-18-2011, 07:36 PM
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Re: budget cuts

Mercerizing is a process that makes cotton lustrous and shiny, by applying sodium hydroxide.
It makes it take dye better, and makes it shinier.
Almost all thread is mercerized- if you had ever sewn, you would probably recognize the word.

Not sure how it applies to Hirst- I have seen a fair amount of Hirst paintings and sculptures, but I must have missed the ones made from foreskins.

An obscure literary reference, perhaps?
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  #6  
Old 04-18-2011, 08:07 PM
oscar oscar is offline
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Re: budget cuts

Some say success is making art fulltime as supposedly, only 2% of those making art achieve. However, when you make it into that 2% it's easy to see that's not what success is because one can be stone broke all the time scraping to make rent each month but doing nothing but art. Tough feeling successful while you're broke. So success here, is defined as at least somewhat wealthy and making art fulltime.

With the above definition in mind ... it aint luck ...it aint hard work. It's having the right name, being born in the right family, and .... well shit ...that's all it takes!
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Old 04-18-2011, 08:14 PM
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Re: budget cuts

No amount of schooling can save you (but you'll be better for having had it), there aint NO luck involved ever, and "success" is a minor concern. Thats all.
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  #8  
Old 04-18-2011, 10:16 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: budget cuts

well hey, if there's no luck involved, I must be successful already! actually you used a double negative, so I guess that means there really IS luck involved. I'll keep your secret safe, wouldn't want it to get out or everyone would want some.

mercerized, etc (thanks, Ries, yes) was just word-salad to represent a creativity I haven't yet located that would catapult me into "amazing new idea" status. Like wearable butter suit or something... yeah, I'll keep working on it...
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  #9  
Old 04-19-2011, 06:00 AM
oscar oscar is offline
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Re: budget cuts

New ideas originating from the under-belly (less or non-successful) are stolen by the blue chip artists. Keep dreamin' Grommet.
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  #10  
Old 04-19-2011, 07:51 AM
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Re: budget cuts

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you used a double negative,
It happens, teach. I've never done too good with the english language. Besides, mangling steel makes you strong; mangling words just makes you better at crossword puzzles.

Surges of "success" oughtn't be connected to accomplishment, wealth, notoriety nor any apparent do-gooding that might occur in servitude to sustenance. "Success", though, can be recalled during rest, those periods of recovery from self-inflicted depletion and later applied in the form internal fortitude or confidence which will spill-out into all of your lesser efforts, improving you and all you encounter. And then when you're up for it, when the nerve has been mustered once more - you can dig into the rigors of aesthetics and get some more of it.
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  #11  
Old 04-19-2011, 08:42 AM
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Re: budget cuts

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Originally Posted by merelees View Post
Looks like England is suffering from financial cut-backs as well, potentially effecting budding Damien Hirsts.
This is good news for the planet and the art world if it only effects budding Damien Hirsts.

As for an art degree, it helps if you want to teach at a college but is useless for actually creating art. Good training in how to see as an artist and effectively translate into 2-D or 3-D what one wishes to is what can be the most help, and the best places for that give no degree. As to success, there are many who lack maturity in defining it properly, and thus pursue a chimera instead of focusing on creating great art.
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  #12  
Old 04-19-2011, 09:23 AM
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Re: budget cuts

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This is good news for the planet and the art world if it only effects budding Damien Hirsts
. Hah! Yep.

But Glenn, one of the (few) good things that can arrive out of human exchange is the insight gained by the encounters of other original thought. The academic environment was SUPPOSED to be about THAT. Of course our universities are deteriorating into trade schools, regardless of the area of study. People attend them these days to hope for a job, J - O - B, job.

The area of the humanities are the last remaining place where REAL success is fostered. Art students are not going there to learn how to carve stone or make molds or build cabinets or draw daisies or execute a faux-finish. Art students are there for the thoughts of peers and faculty. The skills can be got easy - interesting thoughts, though, are very hard to find. The academic intstitution is SUPPOSED to facilitate this (else you'll be forced evermore to extract such banter out of a mostly unwilling and unable "community"). School is great for young'uns and old ones alike. The "real" world is not so real at all...just J - 0 - Bs there. Most folks sleepwalk through that (but you will indeed "succeed" better with that degree in sleepwalking).
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  #13  
Old 04-19-2011, 11:18 AM
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Re: budget cuts

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As for an art degree, it helps if you want to teach at a college but is useless for actually creating art.
Probably not as true as it used to be. The youth of America are not exposed to the process oriented making like they used to be. With US goods manufacturing continuing to slide (except weapons production, of course), high school arts/shop experiences long cut and with the passing of the generation of self-made and make-do handymen/women - where else are people exposed to actual making art or anything. Virtual creation has its value - but hands on experience in college art classes is one of the last places where folks can still actually learn about labor, tools, the logic of making and the pleasure of process. Far more non-art majors (not future artists) take art classes than those with a desire to be an artist - but the lessons are generally the same for degree holders as they are for everyone else. That seems good for both society and art IMO.
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  #14  
Old 04-19-2011, 12:05 PM
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Re: budget cuts

Right Cheese, but I find the "facilities" and processes administered during the art education secondary to the discourse and conversation (and, god-forbid, CRITIQUE).

Becoming exposed to materials, tools and machinery is merely a physical catalogue of possibilities. And in the modern art school "real" applied creativity is thwarted by safety codes, shop rules and chains of litigation-nervous beaurocracies. The version of "work" getting done in that environment is good for curious dabblers but is not potentially the most beneficial aspect of "schooling" for that lonely hopeful who really wishes to get the most out of the rigors of aesthetics.

But plenty of NYC art student have made nice careers for themselves in the workshops of the Macy's parade and the Museum of Natural History.
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Old 04-19-2011, 12:16 PM
rika rika is offline
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Re: budget cuts

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Originally Posted by cheesepaws View Post
Virtual creation has its value - but hands on experience in college art classes is one of the last places where folks can still actually learn about labor, tools, the logic of making and the pleasure of process.
Yes, I agree with that as I struggle and waste days on technical stuff that could be learned easily and fast in a school environment or through an experienced artist or craftsperson. Sigh.
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  #16  
Old 04-19-2011, 01:04 PM
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Re: budget cuts

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Yes, I agree with that as I struggle and waste days on technical stuff that could be learned easily and fast in a school environment or through an experienced artist or craftsperson. Sigh.
Sure enough - but at least you already are making things!

So many of the students I teach are shocked to learn that they are permitted to make things - let alone testing E's challenge to break OSHA code in the pursuit of primal creative bliss.
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  #17  
Old 04-19-2011, 02:28 PM
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Re: budget cuts

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Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
Right Cheese, but I find the "facilities" and processes administered during the art education secondary to the discourse and conversation (and, god-forbid, CRITIQUE).

Becoming exposed to materials, tools and machinery is merely a physical catalogue of possibilities. And in the modern art school "real" applied creativity is thwarted by safety codes, shop rules and chains of litigation-nervous beaurocracies. The version of "work" getting done in that environment is good for curious dabblers but is not potentially the most beneficial aspect of "schooling" for that lonely hopeful who really wishes to get the most out of the rigors of aesthetics.

But plenty of NYC art student have made nice careers for themselves in the workshops of the Macy's parade and the Museum of Natural History.
I'm with E on this one. The one art class I painfully hand to set thou in the endless grind of credits left nothing to be desired. (Just fluff).

But I'm a handy do it yourself kind of person.
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  #18  
Old 04-19-2011, 02:35 PM
merelees merelees is offline
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Re: budget cuts

Ya, Craig, by "successful" I mean the ability to make a comfortable living just doing art.

I'm not sure what you mean, Oscar, when you refer to being "born in the right family". I see that happening with singers and movie stars...it's good to be the sister of Brittany Spears, Jessica Simpson, or Paris Hilton. But I don't really know of any artists that drag their family members into fame with them. Perhaps your refering to wealthy families that provide an income for their children so they don't have to get a real job...and can just work on art?

I guess the general consensus is that college is not only unnecessary, but actually inhibits creativity...
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Old 04-19-2011, 02:48 PM
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Re: budget cuts

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Originally Posted by craigktx View Post
But I'm a handy do it yourself kind of person.
How'd that happen? I'm sure that there is natural disposition at work but what nurtured your "handiness"? Toys that required assembly? A grandparent with a shop out back? (or a father with a toolbox even?), Scouts? Chores?

Just curious.
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Old 04-19-2011, 03:02 PM
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Re: budget cuts

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How'd that happen? I'm sure that there is natural disposition at work but what nurtured your "handiness"? Toys that required assembly? A grandparent with a shop out back? (or a father with a toolbox even?), Scouts? Chores?

Just curious.
No Scouts.

Growing up in the farm lands, horses, chickens and guns.
We were death machines with pellet guns.

Kids aren't allowed to smash thumbs and bleed anymore. Your not buying anything playing in the woods.
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Old 04-19-2011, 03:04 PM
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Re: budget cuts

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I guess the general consensus is that college is not only unnecessary, but actually inhibits creativity...
Nope, an artist will be better having had the higher education by virtue of the INTELLECTUAL exposures.

There, "seeing better" is poised for a fathoming.
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  #22  
Old 04-19-2011, 03:11 PM
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Re: budget cuts

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Originally Posted by evaldart View Post
Nope, an artist will be better having had the higher education by virtue of the INTELLECTUAL exposures.

There, "seeing better" is poised for a fathoming.
Intellectual exposures? Sounds like coffee houses and the burbs.
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  #23  
Old 04-19-2011, 03:13 PM
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Re: budget cuts

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I guess the general consensus is that college is not only unnecessary, but actually inhibits creativity...
I don't see any consensus. Lots of different kinds of artists - plenty of creativity in and out of school.

I should add that while I had a natural disposition toward the tactile and making shit as a kid AND supportive parents who encouraged creativity and self expression - my experiences in college were critical to my development as an artist. I had some OK teachers and some AMAZING ones. Even the duds were able to show me something new - if only the importance of being critical. Since I started teaching college art I have been overwhelmed by the dedication, drive and honest mentoring that I have witness in the field. MOST care. Sorry if some of you had bad experiences.

Last edited by cheesepaws : 04-19-2011 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 04-19-2011, 04:06 PM
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Re: budget cuts

I'm right with Cheese but in a slightly different manner. I had dud teachers that did nothing (for me) and I had (a few) of those amazing ones. Simply being "dedicated" to the task of educating does not mean that a good job of it is happening (one might be dedicated simply out of fear of starvation). Then there is the matter of individual personalities...some folks just dont mix well. Such is life.
I dont suppose that "mentoring" is the role of the art teacher and I dont suppose that a motivated art student would wish for a mentor. BUT yes, drive, enthusiasm and a genuine desire to engage are a MUST for all involved (I havent been overwhelmed by the exhibiting of this - students as well as faculty). But I DO agree that most students leave the academic institution (and some schools are better than others for sure) improved.......even if they claim to have had a bad experience.

The schooling never inhibits... artists can only do that to themselves.
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Old 04-19-2011, 06:57 PM
grommet grommet is offline
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Re: budget cuts

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The schooling never inhibits... artists can only do that to themselves.
There's that never word...
Sorry to say i definitely had teachers who inhibited, and some who did not. There too, I regularly had to prove I wasn't screwing around because I didn't do what the crowd was doing.
A teacher's unwillingness to look outside their own navel gazing affects the student's ability to make the best of their tuition. Challenges should be multi-directional for the fullest experience for all.
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