I'm a 6

[grommet]

I encountered a glitch in my head, bred from too many years spent working for other people.
How important is material integrity in art? Obviously subjective, the public works should be safe for the public, etc. Beyond that, I'm having issues with the notion that things should be durable, leftover from providing services that I would not have to go back to repair.
Though I've used refuse in art pieces, I feel there may be some self imposed line of demarcation there. For me, it should be able to withstand the presence of someone who is a 7 on a scale of 10 in klutziness.
What do you think?

[sparrow]

I have been making art in almost all media since 1965 but mainly in clay. Fired works in clay are not immune from clumsy people, nor are works in glass, jade or any stone work that is thinly crafted. Integrity on that level is not reasonable in my view. Artwork should be protected from a variety of things including the elements and strong sunlight. Since this is a sculpture forum, few people worry about that who work in stone or cast, welded or forged metals.
My work falls in the category of indoor sculpture. Wood, paper, glues, strong dyes and organic material are vulnerable. With care, it should last a long time. I'm not worried about clumsy people or the passage of centuries.
I'm a 7 and I have a cat.

[evaldart]

Part of the value of the creative experience is in the visiting and re-visiting of the artifact (the ability to be reminded of yours or another's pertinent act). Obviously every medium has different physical traits...but from the point of view of SCULPTURE as opposed to the lesser arts, there is relevence in the ability of the stuff/matter/material to oppose and to provide a challenge in the REAL (as opposed to the fantasy that occurs in dreams, imaginations and written-down words). So, if someone argues to you that they are sculpting smoke or air - you would call them a joke, on the other hand a single chip off of a stone with the vaguest of creative intents can be put forth seriously as evidence that some Art might have happened.

So durability matters NOT in how long the damned thing lasts. Durability matters in how well the material has provided its user with a creative encounter with the tactile, the palpable, the physical and the material. This relationship with reality can resound in the artifact. Its quite the case that manual labor, when motivated and fortified by the omniscience of anti-function, is far more yielding that a sweaty brain accompanied by mere tedium.

Once we get to painting and below...these things change and aesthetics opens up to all the easy thinking things that might come out of a creative whim. Some good stuff, mind you...but NOTHING like sculpture.

[GlennT]

There are museums that have waxes from Michelangelo, plaster casts by eighteenth century sculptors, terracotta and glass works from ancient times, and delicate jade carvings. Drop any of these on the floor, and you have smithereens instead of precious artwork.

So... I think the criteria is that of its own accord your work should not fall apart as it minds its own business, spontaneoulsy combust, or succumb to gravity with no outside help, crushing the Smegglepuss, the lurking cat.

As for the klutziness of others, not yours to worry about. Make the best art you can, and inspire others to be good stewards of it.

[StevenW]

The klutziness of others or the simple law of entropy ensures that there will always be a demand. As walls and pedastels jockey for display rights for the new stuff a few of the weaklings must submit. Broken things can be nicer in fact than the originals anyway..

[sparrow]

Geez, Evaldart... You sure know how to put down non-sculptors Personally I don't rank the arts the way you do. The joke among wall artists is: "What's the definition of sculpture? .... It's what you back into when looking at a painting"
You are right in terms of durability. I think there was an artist who sculpted something out of mutton fat and then of course there is ice sculpture.

[sculptor]

some days, I'm a 1
i can dance over extension cords all day without stepping on one once
handle chainsaws while perched in a tree or on a ladder
and swing 180lb beams without knocking a helper off the decking

other days, i can fall while climbing the stairs
spill coffee on my table saws
jab fingers into just sharpened blades
push over a bench and listen to the clatter of tools and materials crashing into heaps ... call it a 9
and i have helpers, cats, and a dog
and i go through packages of bandaids with amazing brevity

while I strive to build (esp) my art so it's damned near immortal,
that ain't actually happened yet

even the pseudo mountain stream with waterfalls i dug, mounded, laid out and landscaped gets silted in and requires maintenance

even GOD couldn't make a perfect world
and evaldart's thor wasn't fool proof
so
do the best you can as integrity is it's own reward
then don't get upset when stuff breaks, degrades, or falls apart

[cheesepaws]

Hey G. You are forgetting that your intellect, imagination and makin' skills allow for you to recreate any art object on a whim. Work the fragility. It doesn't matter in the least if your efforts last a moment or for all eternity.
Also keep in mind that fragility is expressed as a ratio. Durable compared to what? Even Serra's seemingly permanent slabs yield to other forces like the torch, eventual oxidation and - perhaps most devastating - public opinion.

[grommet]

I suppose for me it's a matter of honesty in use of materials. If something is fragile, to openly and with out reservation use that to the concept's advantage. Anything is a viable material, acknowledging that allows its open use without disclaimers. But that's just me. Cleverness is acceptable, deception is not.

Again, goes back to providing things to others that I don't want to have to make excuses for or repair.

It doesn't matter in the least if your efforts last a moment or for all eternity.

It matters to me. i put a lot of effort into what I do. If it falls apart on its maiden voyage, it's a waste of time. Sure the creative experience was had to some extent, but was it a full experience, or a knock-off? How much of a communion did you really have with something if it falls apart right after you make it?

[tobias]

I have listened to people say oh that's sharp or will it bend or... My responce is allways the same. " this is a sculpture not a toy"
That said I tend to use long lasting materials ( granite stainless blah blah). This is more in a vain attempt at immortality.

[GlennT]

Originally Posted by grommet

If it falls apart on its maiden voyage, it's a waste of time. Sure the creative experience was had to some extent, but was it a full experience, or a knock-off? How much of a communion did you really have with something if it falls apart right after you make it?

Does Andy Goldsworthy's work sufficiently address this?

[evaldart]

"It doesnt matter in the least if your efforts last a moment or for all eternity." And Tobias...we've already GOT immortality.

Now you're getting it Cheese. Time and the idea of spans of it are the biggest load of crap the human consciousness has ever come up with. It is the thing that has most-shackled their thinking; got them all worried enough over "afters" and "everafters" that they're willing to concoct and believe all kinds of outlandish stuff.

Fact is, Art, when properly peaked as another rarity within a discerning individual's doing and has occured irrevocably just by the act, is responsible all the authenticity a body can claim. So while its nice to be reminded of that encounter (artifact), it will only be another such encounter that will continue to fortify the eternity of a perception.

Experience needs no order of events...but "Gravity" (which drives Nature - the grand inquisitor of laws and logic) wishes to persuade the gullible into only succumbing..."results" are like answers which are like solutions, which are insidioulsy like...."rewards". But before the word "reward" got written down it was actually only experienced...experienced by an individual in his little graspable place that was far more expansive than the doltish dreams of a "universe".

Oh, and best of all...uh oh, sorry, gotta run some tea upstairs. Wifes got the flu...and she dont wanna hear that nothing ever actually "runs it course",.... from a philosophical point of view,.

[grommet]

Originally Posted by GlennT

Does Andy Goldsworthy's work sufficiently address this?

nope.

[tonofelephant]

I suppose for me it's a matter of honesty in use of materials. If something is fragile, to openly and with out reservation use that to the concept's advantage. Anything is a viable material, acknowledging that allows its open use without disclaimers. But that's just me. Cleverness is acceptable, deception is not.

Again, goes back to providing things to others that I don't want to have to make excuses for or repair.

Grommet, I am in your corner. Don't want to repair or replace anything from my own stupidity. I do want it to last past the warranty period.

It matters to me. i put a lot of effort into what I do. If it falls apart on its maiden voyage, it's a waste of time. Sure the creative experience was had to some extent, but was it a full experience, or a knock-off? How much of a communion did you really have with something if it falls apart right after you make it?

Once again I am in your corner but do wonder if you are now talking about a personal legacy versus the "experience" of making a sculpture. The act of creating sculpture is wonderful and to some extent life-affirming for a sculptor. But does the client really want to share in that experience? Or would the client want to share in your vision of the sculpture only?

As to a personal legacy, that is an ego thing that I and many others are guilty of. What you are making is surely going to stand the test of time better than the paper pusher in a cubicle that move paper from the left edge of the desk to the right edge of the desk. I would like to be remembered as someone who left something tangible behind that other people shared the vision in.

Carl

[grommet]

I guess, in the end, I'd like to have control of just how much trouble I get into. If it's big trouble, I want it to have been with full knowledge & full steam ahead.

I don't care about legacy at all. I would like to be living in something other than a refrigerator box when I'm 90 though, cool as it may be.

[GlennT]

Originally Posted by grommet

I would like to be living in something other than a refrigerator box when I'm 90 though, cool as it may be.

Grommet, if you're nice I can give you rent-free access to my root cellar when you're 90. All I ask is that you hand me up some of the carrots and beets on occaision.

[evaldart]

The poets could do the fridge box just fine...or better yet, no place at all...they can just be "on the road". All the better for their legacy.

We, on the other hand, need room to move, and a place to put stuff, store stuff and DO stuff.

Legacy? Aint that what dead folks get accused of. Not good enough for me.

[sculptor]

Originally Posted by GlennT

...access to my root cellar ... carrots and beets ... .

Tell me about the root cellar
did you dig it?
dirt floor?
ladder?
shelving?
what worked?
what didn't?
ideal temp and humidity?
etc?
free association

[evaldart]

Yeah, is that also where you keep the top-load freezer for carcass/protein storage?

[grommet]

Originally Posted by GlennT

Grommet, if you're nice I can give you rent-free access to my root cellar when you're 90. All I ask is that you hand me up some of the carrots and beets on occaision.

That's awful thoughty of you, but aren't you concerned about a hostile takeover?

[GlennT]

Originally Posted by grommet

That's awful thoughty of you, but aren't you concerned about a hostile takeover?

grommet, if at age 90 you've got enough spunk and spark to effect a hostile takeover, have at it!


sculptor, construction details sent via pm.

[grommet]

Originally Posted by GlennT

grommet, if at age 90 you've got enough spunk and spark to effect a hostile takeover, have at it!

okay, it's on my to-do list. Me 'n' the carrots are bustin' out.

[sculptor]

Originally Posted by grommet

okay, it's on my to-do list. Me 'n' the carrots are bustin' out.

so you n the carrots bust out, and leave all those lonely starving spiders behind

[grommet]

the spiders will be okay; I'll leave some cookies out, so the spiders can eat the ants.