Wet Canvas

[HappySculpting]

This is a continuation of a discussion in the images gallery.... it's more appropriate in this area of the site.

Here's a full quote from the Wet Canvas user agreement
"With respect to Content you submit to the Reference Image Library, you agree that you took the photograph yourself and own all rights to the photograph you are uploading. You understand you will be held liable if you upload images that are copyrighted by someone else. By submitting work to the Reference Image Library, you grant WetCanvas! members the right to create and sell artwork, (including paintings, sculpture, etc.), using your photograph as a reference image in the creation of the artwork."

This is refering to the reference library that a person willingly donates pics too. I've never posted in that area but know that if I do, I am agreeing that others can use these images in their artwork.

I'm glad to see that while signing the user agreement when I became a member of the WC I wasn't assigning anyone the right to take my images and create and copy my sculptures that I post in the sculpture forum part of the website.

Here's another quote from the user agreement:

"23. NOTICE AND PROCEDURE FOR MAKING CLAIMS OF COPYRIGHT OR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY INFRINGEMENT
WetCanvas! respects the intellectual property of others, and we ask our users to do the same. WetCanvas! may, in appropriate circumstances and at its sole discretion, disable and/or terminate the accounts of users who are infringers. If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, or your intellectual property rights have been otherwise violated, please provide WetCanvas!'s Copyright Agent the following information.."

Since I use the site a lot- I care about this subject at hand. I'm not worried about any of the points mentioned on the other thread. Each person can make up their mind what they feel comfortable with. As for me- I like it a lot

[Landseer]

Originally Posted by HappySculpting

As for me, I don't mind Wet Canvas making money off of the images I post. I appreciate how much that site has to offer to a wide variety of artistic expression from oil painting to bead art to sculpture.

The problem is, when I spend my time to take photos, edit them and upload them to MY own web site and message board that I pay for most as a non -profit resource- why the hell should some commercial outfit like wetcanvas make money off MY images as well as data mine and sell my information and email to advertisers to spam me with too?

You might go read their advertisers package, the pdf file is on their web site and they state in there that they data mine and make this available.
In addition they list their advertisers fees and we are not talking about $15 a month here to help out support the cost to run the site were talking up to THOUSANDS of dollars a month per advertiser based on how many clicks/impressions as well as how much depth the ads go.

It's not the site that is the community it's the PEOPLE, and web sites come and go all the time. You can get hosting for a web site and message boards starting for as little as $5 a month with a considerable amount of disk space and bandwidth. I pay under $10 and I get 2 gigs of bandwidth and 200 megs disk space, more mySQL databases than anyone could ever use.
That doesn't mean their site costs $10 a month it doesnt, but it doesnt cost as much as people think it does if you shop around- there's SO much web hosting competition and price wars now it's not funny.

Probably a significant chunk of their bandwidth is in those banner ads, ads, cookies etc

I'm not sure of the financial resource differences between Wet Canvas and this Sculptural Community here. Each site needs to make some money in order to help with expenses. I suppose the SC gets some of its funding from ISC membership.

THIS site has very nicely kept this message board pretty seperate from the commercial side of the domain, their user agreement is not a 15 page legal document stating they can re-sell your content and claim they can use your images royalty free forever as they see fit.

They have adverstisements but I looked at Dick Blick one time and that was it. I don't even pay attention to that but to the forum.

They have at least 20 advertisers that I know of because I had contacted all of them, Dick Blick in fact was re-thinking running their ads there after my emails to them and another said she hasn't paid for her ad in ages and it's still up, neither liked the treatment I received there to my request.

The Wet Canvas is a huge art community and from what I can see, a big benefit to the new artist in many fields. I do hope they make money somehow to never let the site go down! Many art friends would be at a loss for where to go.

Making money on ads is fine, DATA MINING people's private information and claiming that they hold all rights to YOUR images forever is fraudulent.
==========

ADDED IN:
Another thing was, when I was shoved off by the one mod after my request to remove my 8 images, (it wasn't like I asked for 200 to be removed Id never do that) I had little options for who to contact with a complaint, why? - the site owner hides HER email address and has her profile set so no one can email her that way, so no one can contact her. (It's okay to sell everyone elses email addresses but hers is hidden!)

So I did a DNS lookup and tried to email that contact but it was invalid, the phone number was also BOGUS: (123-456-7890), The founder's email address bounced, so already I was wondering who would send money to these people and be sure they don't skip off to Aruba with it???

So I filed a complaint with the site's host as well as the domain registrar and they said they would shut the domain totally OFF if the contact information was not corrected within 7 days, and they sent an email to the owner.
Before the 7 days was up my images were finally removed so I didn't follow up with the registrar again and I don't know if the info was corrected or the registrar hasnt checked again yet.

I don't like feeling cheated, ripped off, taken advantage of or stepped on and I felt all of that and more, when I feel that way I fight back tooth and nail, and I fight dirty and from every angle I can come up with in wave after wave.


=============

In their media kit pdf file it says

"Royalty free reference image library" on pg 5 "Our on line library contains over 30,000 member contributed images..."


They offer industry partner programs, the companies get a forum on that board, and banner ads. Industry partner programs START at $500 and go to $5000, with "Automatic data mining included in the $2500 and $5000 levels.
Their banner ad costs go to $20,000 (see page 15).
Since the founder Scott has sold this site to these new people he also sold them everyone's images- the 30,000 that people spent time creating, editing and uploading basically for them to pawn to a third party who is now using them for ad revenue, but you don't have an issue with that?

How about all the OTHERS who posted images who DON'T know all this, how would you think all these people would feel?

From their user agreement:

Original LLC, owner of WetCanvas! and Art-Agent, (WetCanvas!) provides users with access to a rich collection of resources, including various communications tools, forums, art selling services, search services, personalized content and branded programming through its network of properties which may be accessed through various mediums or devices now known or hereafter developed (the "Service").
'
You also understand and agree that the Service may include certain communications from WetCanvas!, such as service announcements, administrative messages and the WetCanvas! Newsletter, and that these communications are considered part of WetCanvas! membership and you will not be able to opt out of receiving them.

You also agree to: (a) provide true, accurate, current and complete information about yourself as prompted by the Service's registration form (such information being the "Registration Data") and (b) maintain and promptly update the Registration Data to keep it true, accurate, current and complete.

(This is so they have your correct information for their data mining process to spam you with ads via email as well as in your mailbox and I assume your phone. Getting more spam lately? guess where it's coming from)


And here below is where they claim full use of your images and material forever as they see fit royalty free, now I'm not a lawyer but the way this thing is "legaleased" totally in their favor to profit off is disturbing. Translated it basically says you are signing over all rights to your images for them to take, reuse, REPRODUCE, MODIFY, ADAPT your material/images on that site OR "related" site(S). You are further granting all 20,000 members or however many they claim there are now- the right to create and sell artwork using your PHOTOS as a reference. Both are irrevocable and perpetual once you sign up there, and it is THIS buried way down at the bottom of their long user agreement that I know many never read when they signed up:



you grant WetCanvas! the following world-wide, royalty free and non-exclusive license(s), as applicable:

• With respect to Content you submit or make available for inclusion on publicly-accessible areas of the Service, the perpetual, irrevocable license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform and publicly display such Content on, in connection with, or to advertise or promote, the Service, and/or related sites.
• you grant WetCanvas! members the right to create and sell artwork, (including paintings, sculpture, etc.), using your photograph as a reference image in the creation of the artwork.

[Landseer]

This is refering to the reference library that a person willingly donates pics too. I've never posted in that area but know that if I do, I am agreeing that others can use these images in their artwork.

Better read the whole thing, which I just posted from that agreement, they are also doing this with POSTED Images and content not JUST that library, the image library is only mentioned as icing on the cake for enticing advertisers :


you grant WetCanvas! the following world-wide, royalty free and non-exclusive license(s), as applicable:

• With respect to Content you submit or make available for inclusion on publicly-accessible areas of the Service, the perpetual, irrevocable license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform and publicly display such Content on, in connection with, or to advertise or promote, the Service, and/or related sites.
• you grant WetCanvas! members the right to create and sell artwork, (including paintings, sculpture, etc.), using your photograph as a reference image in the creation of the artwork.

====


As you can see this extends to ALL areas of that site and all content.
It almost seems like you are advertising this competing board, if you like the board that's fine, but everyone else should know what is IN that legalese they put up so they can either run it past their attorney or at least know they are giving up significant rights to their content that post there- both images and text, articles, tutorials etc for a strictly for-profit corporate entity irrevocable and in perpetual for free in exchange for:


Use of a message board...


My request a few days after I joined- to remove my copyrighted 8 images and why I wanted them removed- was met with ridicule- to the effect of and nearly to the exact wording of;


"You should have READ the user agreement, too bad"




Per what you posted:



" "23. .. you believe that your work has been copied in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, or your intellectual property rights have been otherwise violated, please provide WetCanvas!'s Copyright Agent the following information.."



Only problem is, when I clicked on the stated site owner's email address and sent a complaint it BOUNCED back "No such user":



----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<scottb@wetcanvas.com>

----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to wetcanvas.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<scottb@wetcanvas.com>
<<< 550 5.1.1 <scottb@wetcanvas.com>... User unknown
550 <scottb@wetcanvas.com>... User unknown



----


The apparant new owner locked up their profile so you CAN'T email them at all.


I go to look up who owns the domain and what their legally required contact address IS, and first thing was the phone number was bogus, the second thing was the email on THAT was also bogus, so I contact the domain registrar who sent this in part:


Re: Domain Registration/Transfer (ticket 972508)

Hello,

Once again thank you for your e-mail and your patience. A Senior
Administrator has sent an e-mail to the administrative contact on the
account. If we do not receive a response within a week, we will suspend the account. Have a great day.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to email our award-
winning customer care center, 24 hours a day, at support@domaindiscover.com.
US and Canadian residents can reach us toll-free at 1-877-518-4965;
international customers may call 1-858-560-9437.

Sincerely,
===


And:

Re: Other (ticket 972512)

Thank you for your email. I am escalating this matter to a supervisor,
please allow up to 24 hours for an additional response.


====



And lastly, they have NO idea how close they came to having their entire site plus message board totally shut OFF;


Re: Domain Registration/Transfer (ticket 972508)
Hello,
We still have to wait a couple of more days before we can turn the domain
off. In the mean time, you might want to address the copyright issue with
the company that is hosting the content of the site, they are the ones that
can remove the content that you're disputing right away.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to email our award-
winning customer care center, 24 hours a day, at

===========



So you tell me, what does one have to do when the emails bounce, the phone # is bogus and mods refuse to respond?

I probably spent two weeks on this matter, sent every advertiser of theirs I could find - the details, and they almost had their domain shut off over my 8 images I very nicely asked -once- to be removed in the first place, you have no idea how aggravating that whole scene was, nor did they have a clue how far I was preparing to go on that due to their attitude and "response"



These are NOT people I would ever want to do business with in any capacity whatsoever.
Now that I've said my piece on THAT I'm done with them and suggest we drop it at this point.

I believe the basic issue is well worth expanding on in the older copyrights thread and I will take a look in there next.

[Araich]

Clearly this is an important issue, but I would add that from my experience (I have licensed reproduction rights before) this contract is not really all that binding. Copyright law is very specific and a license must meet certain criteria before it becomes binding. For example, your signature.

I would be interested if anyone can cite a case where clicking a few website buttons has produced a binding copyright license.

[Landseer]

Hi Araich,

I am glad you find the basic topic of use, while most of this is a personal matter (the 8 photos) the overall topic is one I think should be dissected, I'd like to move next over to that thread on copyrights as this is good for that thread and will no longer deal with wetcanvas specifically like this thread has.

I believe this link will go to the older thread and I just posted there a more generic response;

http://www.sculpture.net/community/s...0186#post20186

[HappySculpting]

you grant WetCanvas! the following world-wide, royalty free and non-exclusive license(s), as applicable:



Landseer wrote this quote from Wet Canvas User Agreement:


"With respect to Content you submit or make available for inclusion on publicly-accessible areas of the Service, the perpetual, irrevocable license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform and publicly display such Content on, in connection with, or to advertise or promote, the Service, and/or related sites.
you grant WetCanvas! members the right to create and sell artwork, (including paintings, sculpture, etc.), using your photograph as a reference image in the creation of the artwork."
====

The Full quote that I found at Wet Canvas as follows:

"8. CONTENT SUBMITTED OR MADE AVAILABLE FOR INCLUSION ON THE SERVICE

WetCanvas! does not claim ownership of Content you submit or make available for inclusion on the Service. However, with respect to Content you submit or make available for inclusion on publicly-accessible areas of the Service, you grant WetCanvas! the following world-wide, royalty free and non-exclusive license(s), as applicable:

With respect to Content you submit or make available for inclusion on publicly-accessible areas of the Service, the perpetual, irrevocable license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform and publicly display such Content on, in connection with, or to advertise or promote, the Service, and/or related sites.
With respect to Content you submit to the Reference Image Library, you agree that you took the photograph yourself and own all rights to the photograph you are uploading. You understand you will be held liable if you upload images that are copyrighted by someone else. By submitting work to the Reference Image Library, you grant WetCanvas! members the right to create and sell artwork, (including paintings, sculpture, etc.), using your photograph as a reference image in the creation of the artwork.
"Publicly-accessible" areas of the Service are those areas of the WetCanvas! network of properties that are intended by WetCanvas! to be available to the general public. By way of example, publicly-accessible areas of the Service would include WetCanvas! Message Boards, reference image library, blogs, etc. However, publicly-accessible areas of the Service would not include WetCanvas! services intended for private communication such as Private Messages, or areas off of the WetCanvas! network of properties such as portions of World Wide Web sites that are accessible through hypertext or other links but are not hosted or served by WetCanvas!."

Let the reader interpret this if they care to. I find a different conclusion than what is asserted in prior post.

My intentions are to give references to any thread on any forum that is of benefit to the members here.

My energies are best spent sculpting.

[HappySculpting]

One point that I do agree on is that I feel that a user should be able to delete a picture if they'd like to. Their may be valid reasons for needing to do such a thing. So I'll make sure that I use an image hosting source that I can delete the pics from if I decide to at a later time.

~Tamara

[Landseer]

Originally Posted by HappySculpting

One point that I do agree on is that I feel that a user should be able to delete a picture if they'd like to. T

There's plenty of valid reasons, I for one very often go back and re-edit or update and add to older posts- ESPECIALLY on work in progress.
Maybe after posting a series of detailed images I might decide that 6 of the 10 can go away to save loading time for everyone, and that the remaining 4 amply show what is needed.

"With respect to Content you submit or make available for inclusion on publicly-accessible areas of the Service, the perpetual, irrevocable license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform and publicly display such Content on, in connection with, or to advertise or promote, the Service, and/or related sites. "

Let the reader interpret this if they care to. I find a different conclusion than what is asserted in prior post.

What exactly is this different conclusion you come to on that user agreement?

It says right there you are agreeing to give them perpetual (that means forever) and irrevocable ( that means you can never remove) license to use, distribute, reproduce, adapt etc etc your content on that site as well as any other "related" sites they run, totally free of royalties and remuneration.

According to their own contract you sign, "related" sites they can use your content on could be pretty extensive, they are an LLC commercial corporation who apparantly owns Wetcanvas AND "Art-Agent" and has a "network of properties" per this:

"Original LLC, owner of WetCanvas! and Art-Agent, ...through its network of properties which may be accessed through various mediums or devices now known or hereafter developed (the "Service")


You are agreeing to turn over use rights to anything you post there for them to use forever totally free, it's pretty clear to me but it's written in so much legalease I would suggest people not try to interpret all that themselves but to have an attorney go over it before signing what could be a legal document and a BIG mistake.

I'm just thankful I discovered all that before I posted more over there than I did. I only found the site after you posted here and I went to look over there and man am I sorry I ever signed up there!

Now you might have a good photo you want to share with others, post it and then later decide to market this in print form for something, but whoops- the same image is on this web site free for all for the downloading, and it won't be removed.

Lastly, the datamining is mentioned in the media kit, I don't recall seeing it anywhere else. They state in so many words that they can send you emails from time to time and that you CANT "opt out" of receiving them, but I didn't notice they inform registrants that they not only datamine but make this available to their advertisers to spam you with.
So if you have an email address and you sign up with it, expect you will get unwanted junk mail not only from them but all of their advertisers as well as and in addition to all their banner ads etc on the boards.




I've never in my 12 years on the net seen a user agreement like THAT one for a message board, I've seen less legal mumbo-jumbo for a 5 year legal lease on an apartment , or application for a mortgage loan! this one takes the cake.

[MountainSong]

I’ve been a member there for several years and never gotten spammed or unwanted solicitations from any of their advertisers.
The problem I have posting there is my work has ‘inspired’ too many new artists and for a while there I was seeing a lot of work popping up like mine and so eventually moved into a closed a private forum which is not google-able.
The other problem that some of us ran into with WC being such an open site was with people openly ripping off the images and made cheap giclees out of them. Several different artists have found them selling on Ebay or on menus in restaurants and such. When you’re a professional artist coming up with original imagery is stings a bit to get ripped off and of course it take a bite out of the ‘ole pocket book.