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-   -   Is it art if you don't make it yourself? (http://www.sculpture.net/community/showthread.php?t=8494)

Chalice 11-16-2008 06:47 PM

Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
This is a question I've been thinking about a bit lately. At what stage does art become design. How much physical input must you have in a piece to actually call it art and how many artisits are famous but were not really making their art themselves but paying others to make their designs?
I'm not trained in the arts at all, just enjoy thinking about it.

evaldart 11-16-2008 06:58 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
Design is a verb not a noun...an idea not a product...a method not a work.

Tlouis 11-16-2008 07:06 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
It can be a noun as in: a design sketched on paper. No?

Chalice 11-16-2008 07:14 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
Quote:

Design is a verb not a noun...an idea not a product...a method not a work.
It can be a noun or a verb, don't be a smart ass and answer the question. *wink*

Chalice 11-16-2008 07:21 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
I guess what I'm looking for is your opinion, I don't know if there is a text book answer. I'm sure though that some public works are not totally the work of the sculptor, they at least have some help with the construction. However if a painter had somone do some of their painting would that be OK?

chris 71 11-16-2008 07:38 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
you should surf around the site a bit. you will find this is a hot button topic with lots of strong opinuions but you can find lots of good reads on simalar questions. maybe some one can link a thread with some answers if i think of one i will post a link for you i know i have read lots on the subject here. not sure about the painting part though.

chris 71 11-16-2008 07:43 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
heres one to start i could be a little off just going with what popped in my head
http://www.sculpture.net/community/s...ght=Conceptual

evaldart 11-16-2008 07:50 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
Look Chalice this is real y another one of those questions that we all must get comfortable with as individuals. Not unlike the Art/craft question. We will all appeal to our strengths, develop weaknesses (if we think they matter), and live with the outcome. The most important thing is to be honest with ourselves and reserve the Art for the product of our purest efforts (however you, that person in the mirror, currently defines those purities).

I think that it is very rare that there is Art involved when groups of hands and many minds have been all-over something. The human-ness of it will always prevail...and it is actually only incidental that your consciousness is attached to a human.

But the answer is...you've got to do your own work...grey areas will not excuse you...if you cant do it, do the better thing that you just MIGHT be able to do.

And need I disclaim that my views, which I usually propose emphatically as factual by a stylistic liberty, may not actually be "Truth"...but they feel as correct as possible at the given moment...and they might well change tomorrow.

I prefer "wise-ass" to "smart-ass", but its your sentence.:D

jOe~ 11-16-2008 07:51 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
Quote:

I guess what I'm looking for is your opinion, I don't know if there is a text book answer.
There are no answers, only opinions. Feel free to form your own. Be creative. Have a much fun as possible. Why place limits?

zazie 11-16-2008 07:53 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
Design has different meanings, notably (i.e., not exhaustively), as a verb:

To plan.
Design in sculpting (and painting) refers to the composition or planning of the piece either by sketching in clay or drawing. Reading about how master artists plan(ned) their work illuminates the importance of design in art and is a great learning experience.

To create.
Not all created objects become art work, but a functional object may be considered a piece of art when the form transcends the function, or in other words, when the skill, experience, and knowledge required to create the artful object are *higher* (see below) than to create a purely functional object.

As a noun:
Design encompasses the characteristics of the plan or composition of an object so that we can compare the composition of various artists, or for that matter, the makers of anything.

Created objects fail as art because of inexistent or poor design.

Hence art is mostly in the design and the execution is technique, so design is a *higher* skill than technique, and thus rich artists design and leave the execution to skilled craftspersons while poor artists have to do both the design and the execution.

chris 71 11-16-2008 08:52 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
heres another
http://www.sculpture.net/community/s...ighlight=fetus

evaldart 11-16-2008 09:01 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zazie (Post 68372)

Hence art is mostly in the design and the execution is technique, so design is a *higher* skill than technique, and thus rich artists design and leave the execution to skilled craftspersons while poor artists have to do both the design and the execution.

Aw man, there aint enough gigs on this site to address how wrong I think this statement is.

Designs/ideas/thoughts posess no atoms. They are only HALF way to Art. They are a recipe. (I ate a recipe once, for lasagna...tore it right outta the book and gobbled it down. WORST lasagna I ever had). Execution is everything, and the execution will want to own the Art itself, will want to depart from the idea, assert its physicality over the consumptive slightness of the hovering design. But thoughts, gaunt yet stubborn, refuse to be bullied, they utilize insidious abilities to persuade the manhandler that is actually working. The thoughts wish to train, govern and exploit by the advantage of their attention span. But the manhandler never quite gets it "right". And when its all over you know it is Art when both of them think they have won that battle.
If one of them loses you have either craft or nothing. NOT Art.

rika 11-16-2008 09:40 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evaldart (Post 68377)
Designs/ideas/thoughts posess no atoms. They are only HALF way to Art.

Then what about Spencer Tunick? Where would you place him? He's the designer, the creator, the maestro, but thousands are the executors of his work. He still owns it. It's not half art, it's all art.

evaldart 11-16-2008 09:51 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
Tunick is like a producer or a director of a film or a composer of a symphony, and then its often politically afflicted as well...yeah, its Art I suppose, but it aint Sculpture. And we all know whats best.

chris 71 11-16-2008 10:18 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
another one of those genius. the more i think about your analogy of this forum being like a Bosch painting. the more it rings true. but i think the roles of the reactionaries here with the nads to make post are ever changing one day you can be a decapitator and the next day a bleeder or applauded then impaled. it really is in the subtext. in between the lines theres so much more than art here.

Chalice 11-16-2008 10:59 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
Thats why I asked the question Chris. :)

chris 71 11-16-2008 11:04 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chalice (Post 68384)
Thats why I asked the question Chris. :)

ha ha :p its funny you say that. when i first read your post i thought it might be baited ah the fun and games.

Chalice 11-16-2008 11:13 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
Well I suppose you could say it was baited, but I'm genuinely interested in the answers. I find it fascinating that we can't really define "What is art?". I really enjoy the difference of opinion. Zazzie and Evaldart are opposite ends of the spectrum and both of them are convincing in their replies. I still don't feel I can answer the question with any conviction.

zazie 11-16-2008 11:14 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
GlennT has been away for less than 24 hours and this forum's IQ is already in free fall ...

Chalice 11-16-2008 11:21 PM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
Really I hardly think you can say Spencer Tunick is little better than a film director. (and anyhow, what kind of film?)

jOe~ 11-17-2008 08:36 AM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
Quote:

I'm not trained in the arts at all, just enjoy thinking about it
Do you make art or just think about it?

StevenW 11-17-2008 09:08 AM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chalice (Post 68387)
I find it fascinating that we can't really define "What is art?".... I still don't feel I can answer the question with any conviction.

I think because technically it does not exist anymore than Zeus, peter pan or the easter bunny. When someone else fulfills your design it is called manufacture, whether singular or plural. In the case of the "producer", many hands may well be the point and so it can easily take on a chameleon-like appearance, but that is all, a shadow of aspiration, another cuckoo clock.

"Button ya Tunick lad".

Zulu, 1963

jOe~ 11-17-2008 10:13 AM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
Quote:

I think because technically it does not exist anymore than Zeus, peter pan or the easter bunny. When someone else fulfills your design it is called manufacture, whether singular or plural
It depends on how you want to define art, how to narrow the category to perhaps only "objects created largely by hand/s, or limited power or/computer controlled tools. See I don't give a damn about the tools. To me art is an experience. Like I've said many times, I'm easy. Just give me the high of experiencing it. I don't care how you create/manufacture it, just do it more. So that is my definition of art. It is an experience. And I shouldn't have to say this, but some will need to be reminded that experience has infinitely indefinite interpretations. So anything you say that tries to narrow the definition is negative. Negative is like a cosmic death ray, to your health,freedom, happiness, peace, art. The more precise your definition is, the more exclusionary ,therefor more fatal. By means of choking off its vital source,freedom of expression, it can't grow, therefore it dies. This is my organic theory of art--all of it.

StevenW 11-17-2008 10:41 AM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
I appreciate your POV Joe, of-course and I feel much the same way, but I do not think that way. Can the finest cuckoo clock be Fine Art? I went to a clock store to get some movements (xmas time again) and on the wall there were cuckoo clocks and grandfather clocks ranging from 100-10,000 dollars. 10k is what many sculptor's charge for their "good stuff", but was it Fine Art? No, not to me.. It was indeed exquisitely crafted, better than I could ever hope. Nonetheless, I've seen 200 dollar sculptures with more Fine Art in them then a dozen such contraptions.

Along this line, Cheese brought up Art vs. Artifact and how Fine Art can, does and will become Artifact (eventually). I'm thinking this through now in relation to a thread (s) from another beloved rock forum.

The Archeologists all surmise that this was the first temple, dating back to almost 10,000 BC. (New find, old temple)..

http://www.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/turkey.html

Personally I think they are wrong. This well could have been a temple and served some religious purpose, but the function would have been much more important than that. I think it was the first Wal-Mart. The stone animals on those walls/pillars are clearly artifacts right? Not so fast I say! To me, the stone is eternal (or as eternal as it can get) and thus also to me these funny little stone animals have more Fine Art in them than a dozen pickled sharks or diamond studded skulls.

jOe~ 11-17-2008 10:49 AM

Re: Is it art if you don't make it yourself?
 
Quote:

I appreciate your POV Joe, of-course and I feel much the same way, but I do not think that way.
By Jove I think you've got it backwards dear chap. I said I don't care about the object, just the experience of it, the feel of it. Anything can be art if it gives you the feel of it, but therein lies the magic of art, anything could, but very few things can.


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