make a living

[Dustin Faddis]

how many of you artists, who make a living selling your work, completed formal training in art by obtaining BA or a Master of Arts Degree?

Is it the network established at school that helped your work sell?

Can a person make a living if they don't have formal art training degree or certificate?

Is dropping a portfolio off at gallaries and connecting with other artists just as effective to sell your work?

what is your experience? thanks for your time and input!

[CroftonGraphics]

Hi this post perhaps may help.....

http://www.sculpture.net/community/showthread.php?t=5972&highlight=courses

There are loads of threads relating to your question.
I think there is also a post 'self taught' but cant find it, anyone?

[sculptor]

Hi this post perhaps may help.....

http://www.sculpture.net/community/showthread.php?t=5972&highlight=courses

There are loads of threads relating to your question.
I think there is also a post 'self taught' but cant find it, anyone?

see:
http://www.sculpture.net/community/search.php?searchid=583381

(search autodidactic)

[Dustin Faddis]

From those people I've heard that have attended an art program the friendships and networks are helpful. And, a degree gives a person the credentials to teach; which has a more secure financial possability.

Steel sculptures seem to lead the way in commissions and sales.


I've only seen some vague comments on paying off debts that were acquired from student loans.


What I'm really wondering is:

Have you paid off your loans by way of your sculpting career?


YES? or NO?

and, I guess I can answer my own question by answering this one: Is there a market for sculpture?. Yes, yes there is. Whether or not you have managed your finances is a large determinante of whether or not you are "debt free". I've seen several level 10 users, who appear to be professional artists, who have a family. Apparently these artists are making a living from their art work. blessing to them!

[Dustin Faddis]

I just completed the discourse on the thread titled "art programs, what would you do". this thread provided me with a variety of answers to the questions I posed. I am leaning more towards taking select courses to spur my learning of art techniques and knowledge and to consider my pursuits in sculpture on my own. I have aqcuired enough debt already with work toward a Masters in a different emphasis.

I want to consider practical steps toward self-directed studies and key placement in networks and hope for the best. I feel like I'm best equiped to learn in a studio and foundry setting rather than art history and critque class. Ultimately, I think I was interested in receiving encouragement from someone like a prof. who is familiar with the art industry, but I think I obtain that encouragement through my work, family, friends, and patrons. I just need to create my success and market it accordingly.

thanks for the input!

CHEERS!

[iron ant]

Is it the network established at school that helped your work sell?

My belief is school is more about technigue and process ,to and about sculpture,but the selling is a whole nother animal.It think it starts with what type of sculpture you make,what your target market is,and what if any capital you have to get the machine going.My best advice is bust ass,bust ass,network,and bust ass somemore.If you have the right work,right palce right time,you will and can sell,but it aint easy.....IA

[cheesepaws]

My belief is school is more about technigue and process ,to and about sculpture,but the selling is a whole nother animal.

Of course, you can choose to study in a program that IS connected (Yale, Columbia, SVA, etc..).

Attending a program may give you an edge in terms of a showing history and kick-off the networking process by connecting you with other students (some of whom might be great future promotors of your work). Also, many professors use their own professional connections to help network ex-students - so I guess it depends on the teachers and the school (and what each student makes of the experience).

[iron ant]

Your right,depens on each school and student,as we are all have different work an needs and goals.I was lucky,Richard Tichich,head of Georgia Southern Art Department lined me up a great apprendice with Caroline Montague,a noted sculptor in Atlanta at the time.Indirectly my work and conections I made with her definitly contributed to me actually putting myself and work in the position to sell,but the school basically gave me the foot in the door,and I chose how I wanted to open it,and everybody probally opens it a little different.IA

[zazie]

Here is an interesting link to an article in the New York Times:

"Transforming Art Into a More Lucrative Career Choice"

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/27/business/smallbusiness/27shift.html?em

[evaldart]

Z, this article only encourages pathways that will take us all AWAY from Art. "Business", hah. Our participation with and amongst the hustlers and bustlers is likely to be devastatingly distracting. Theres a damn good chance, should we succeed in this, that we will abandon the compulsions that originally brought us together with creative pertinence. Making a living by our creative uniqueness does NOT assure that ALL our product is Art...even if THEY tell us that it is. It is vital that the SIGNIFICANT artful occurences continue to take place as often as possible (as opposed to the less artful occurences which might be handy for paying some bills and buying some comfort). And if your "finest-of-the-fine" pays some bills too...more power to you.

[CroftonGraphics]

Right on Eval!

That article is quite positive but running a company to pay the bills can be so time consuming that you dont get time to do the good stuff.
When I do design work it takes up so much time but I am taking some time out and slowly building up sculpture and drawing 'stocks' (will show them oneday). But that is just my experience.

There was a documentary about Richard Serra, it mentioned he had to make ends meet by running a removals company with Philip Glass and other visionaries to get by for a bit. That must have been an interesting removals company!

[zazie]

Evaldart -

Granted, the examples in the article may not fit everyone lifestyle or idea of what art entails.

Yet, what is important for me, is that the article may inspire some to think different(ly), it may awaken or stimulate the spirit of entrepreneurship and open the mind to possibilities not previously considered.

[anatomist1]

If you are clever, determined, and deferential to the professors, I think you can get what you want as a part-time student for a fraction of the cost, but you might have to fish around through a few schools. A particularly friendly professor may let you get almost all of what the full-time students are getting for as little as one credit. I've gotten full access to a U sculpture program for 1 credit per semester. If you make it clear that you are an adult who is realistic about finances but serious about working and are willing to go the extra mile in other ways to fit in and help out, only an unreasonable rules-mongering professor is going to snub you... probably someone who is not what you are looking for anyway.



I just completed the discourse on the thread titled "art programs, what would you do". this thread provided me with a variety of answers to the questions I posed. I am leaning more towards taking select courses to spur my learning of art techniques and knowledge and to consider my pursuits in sculpture on my own. I have aqcuired enough debt already with work toward a Masters in a different emphasis.

I want to consider practical steps toward self-directed studies and key placement in networks and hope for the best. I feel like I'm best equiped to learn in a studio and foundry setting rather than art history and critque class. Ultimately, I think I was interested in receiving encouragement from someone like a prof. who is familiar with the art industry, but I think I obtain that encouragement through my work, family, friends, and patrons. I just need to create my success and market it accordingly.

thanks for the input!

CHEERS!

[Dustin Faddis]

If you are clever, determined, and deferential to the professors, I think you can get what you want as a part-time student for a fraction of the cost, but you might have to fish around through a few schools. If you make it clear that you are an adult who is realistic about finances but serious about working and are willing to go the extra mile in other ways to fit in and help out, only an unreasonable rules-mongering professor is going to snub you... probably someone who is not what you are looking for anyway.

I like the way you think! I am going to pursue my sculpture, with out the guidance of a program, persae, but will pursue utilizing resources around those programs and reach out to different art communities and events. I'd like to facilitate some art therapy classes to bring in some income and stay focussed on creative processes and art minds in general. and, this will help me pursue my art a good portion of the time as well as help others along the way! I need to create!

Ananomist, I like your reasoning and style of discourse. I also have an undergraduate degree in philosophy, but now 'am pursuing a Masters in Counseling. I have 1.5 or >yrs left out of the 3+ yr program. But, I've recognized my intense passion to work with my hands and to integrate my theories on life, love, and relationships into my sculpting practice.

thanks for all the comments. many blessings to you!

[Aaron Schroeder]

Hey Dustin, here's a side note. Noticed you make reference to Jesus at the bottom of your post. You may not realize it ......but there's the Jesus art crowd, then there's the non-Jesus art crowd. They don't mix very well. You'll have to choose which camp you fall into, then proceed from there. Finding a middle ground is an option but will require deception on your part which may be objectionable. I bring this up because the " Art World " is more or less the secular humanist world, talk of prophets may hurt your bottom line. It all depends on presentation. Heads up, it may be a factor, at least as it relates to making a living .

[GlennT]

Aaron: I realize that from your perspective, you are trying to be helpful.
Dustin's selcted quote line is composed of three sentences. All three of these express gratitude. One of those three expressions of gratitude happens to mention Jesus Christ. If someone finds that objectionable, it would speak volumes about the intolerence of such an individual, not about what "camp" Dustin does or does not belongs to.

[sculptorsam]

I second Aaron's observation/suggestion. Religion and politics are best left out of polite discussions. It's just bad business. Should you choose to proselytize for either, you immediately change the nature of the discussion and risk alienating a substantial portion of your audience. But the choice is yours. I know I have collectors that are religious fundamentalists as well as staunch social conservatives. I don't bring it up because I choose to focus on our common (aesthetic) connection... as well as the fact that I have a family to support.

To address your initial question, I'm a full-time sculptor though I do not have a degree. If you want to go into teaching, that would be a necessary route to go. Otherwise, I suggest offering to sweep the floor of a successful artist in your chosen medium.

[evaldart]

I suggest offering to sweep the floor of a successful artist in your chosen medium.


I'm sure Sam meant this metaphorically...as in; offer yourself as an assistant in order to be amongst the tools, talent and techniques that interest you. Thats another route. No one would encourage you to kiss any ass or demean yourself in any way to be in the presence of perceived "greatness" and thusly utilize another's celebrity and influence to eventually elevate yourself. Thats a dead end. YOU can decide who you think has achieved success and give the old fart a hand with the heavy stuff.
Of course, I never worked for anyone...figured I could learn it all by myself...RIGHT AWAY. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't. But, like Sam, I have a family (and a 7.3 litre diesel engine) to feed...got to drag the art-stuff around.

Yeah, I dont care what my collectors believe and they dont seem to care what I DONT believe. If you've done it right (the Art, that is), all the human dalliances will fall away...the sculpted thing is bigger and better than any of the fickle flutterings of any "culture".

Bottom line, there are millions of ways to make a living and some of them involve sculpting...but not all of those involve sculpture. Establish an intense relationship with your medium and learn to know what you're making when you're making it and what you're selling when you're selling it(Art...or something else). But, Time alone in the studio is unimaginably luxurious...pales everything else... no matter what is under the hammer.

[sculptorsam]

I'm sure Sam meant this metaphorically...

Yeah, sorry for my glibness. I'm a big advocate of skill-learning through apprenticeship... the most important skills not being technical in nature. I'd say discipline, frugality, attentiveness, care and empathy are incredibly valuable skills to develop. And I would go out on a limb and suggest that sweeping a floor is a great way to learn these qualities. Of course, if you need specific technical skills, look outside the art world. Take vo-tech classes or seek out trained professionals with the knowledge you seek.

[Dustin Faddis]

I bring this up because the " Art World " is more or less the secular humanist world, talk of prophets may hurt your bottom line. It all depends on presentation. Heads up, it may be a factor, at least as it relates to making a living .

Thanks for the perspective. I'm not concerned with "camps", just interested in creating objects that express my perceptions, feelings, and general sense of encouragement to humanity. I like limited perspectives such as "secular humanism", I welcome the intellectual discourse and choose to focus on concepts that promote health, well-being, grace, and an openness to understand how things might benefit everyone.

My Biblical Christian worldview is the lens which I assess my life and relationship to my surroundings and other human beings. From my understanding, Biblical principles are foundational human interests, and provide me with understanding of human motives and explanations to behavior. They are principles I choose to rely on for guidance, encouragement, and a sense of well-being.

I recognize good and evil through them and rely on them to overcome negatives. The Biblical-Christian worldview is extremely adaptive to explaining the general relationship aspects of human beings and provides opportunites for wellness no matter what the circumstance or situation. Because human beings are distinction making beings who are each on their own journey and pursuits it's sometims difficult to see those Biblical principles manifested in real life, and maybe more so regarding those who belong to a particular "camp". And when life happens, it's even harder to tap into those principles for the comfort I pursue.

Jesus didn't offer one camp he offered His life. I'm more concerned with living my life to according to the opportunities that He made available. When someone happens to see the positive outcomes of living out those principles, I'm glad to pass on what I've learned.

I like to consider the obersvations of human behavior in order to decide what principles are confirmed, dismissed, or neutral. I like to weigh competing perspectives not for the sake of a particular camp, but for the sake of truth and well-being. To me, when the Christ perspective was challenged, it spoke made observations, spoke the truth about its experience, and laid down its life as it received the rebutting reply. And, miraculously, it was resurrected. If not in the actual flesh, in the lives of men, women, and children who experienced and recognized its truth and life changing attributes.

My understanding of a "secular humanist" worldview is that it holds to atheism or atleast agnosticism. These holdings make it hard to provide an explanation for the creative process humans pursue-known as "art". Survival of the fittest doesn't tolerate art; nor do its other limiting logical outcomes that help me make sense of this life. I choose to pursue reasonable explanations that offer some greater opportunities in understanding. Thinking about limiting logical outcomes such as these are not for me. But, I am by no means discouraging one from doing so; rather I look to inspire discourse through my actions. But if someone is mistreating someone else and a belief is behind the behavior, I will speak against both and bless the person responsible for them. The change, if they so choose, belongs to them.

I'm well entrenched with my culture and I know what is "acceptable" and what is not. If someone is defaming or speaking against a person they would do better to communicate by speaking against their fear or concern that is being preceived.

If what I promote in my art is at its core Biblical Christian principles, but people reject it because they rejecti religion or Jesus Christ or the Christian that wronged them, they will be missing out on an opportunity to experience beauty-general and to experience my perspective/communication of that beauty. In doing so will be missing out of receiving what I believe is my gift to them.

My voice will proclaim thankgiving to the name of Jesus Christ not condemnation to fellow humans, I don't have that authority; nor does anyone else living on this earth. My art is not camp bound. If someone purchases something takes it to their camp that is fine, it will be enjoyed there and wherever.

Believing in the historical person of Jesus Christ and the accurate documentation of His life, encourages me to pursue creating in the hope to reflect my experiences on this earth. If other people choose to learn from my experience or just be in the arts presence then I hope they find themselves blessed, comfortable, and well fed. The people I delight and seek to entertain with my achievements will love and encourage me and enjoy with me this process through thick and thin; I don't care if no other person makes mention of what I produce or speaks against it otherwise.

[Dustin Faddis]

Establish an intense relationship with your medium and learn to know what you're making when you're making it and what you're selling when you're selling it(Art...or something else). But, Time alone in the studio is unimaginably luxurious...pales everything else... no matter what is under the hammer.

I've taken this. Thank your for the encouragement. I fully agree that it is a luxury!

[sculptorsam]

Some luck out and are born with silver spoons in their mouths. Some, like Sam, have parents with fabricating companies. Some fight tooth and nail to produce the art that pours from their hearts.

And some bitterly wallow in the unfairness of life and the perceived advantages of others. I didn't suggest the value of sweeping floors because of some theoretical knowledge, but because that is how I started out in elementary school. The flip side of having a metal shop where you grow up is that you start working when you're very young, and never have an excuse not to. But that also imparts skills and an ethic that you just can't buy with a degree, or gloss over with talk.

But you are right about one thing, it is all about the work. Collectors will only put down their hard earned money for something whose quality captivates them. Something that succeeds. Or you can always try to con people into believing you've created a time machine and recite some pseudo-science when they point out that it fails. The choice is yours.

[cheesepaws]

That way you won't waste your life away trapped in a teaching job where your students constantly bleed you dry for ideas every day thus sapping your creativity and throwing it into the realms of a maggot on a rotting dead mouse.

Was this your experience? I have never had a student "bleed me dry" in the ideas department. If anything students inspire a dialogue that can only inform new work and help generate ideas - for them and any involved in their training.

If you go into art thinking about it as a job or profession then it will be a job or profession and your work will suck. Naw, if you truly are an artist, there is no question. You make art, every thing else is secondary.

Actually, (personally) I do treat it like a job and it is my profession. What else would you call it if it is what you do full time? Why do you think the notion of making art as a job carries a negative stigma? It is not clear to me how the idea of a career, profession or job operates antithetically to art making. Why would art made by a "careerist" be sucky? If it is not a job for you how does it transcend hobby or some notion of romantic whimsy? Just looking for clarification. Thanks.

[evaldart]

making a living occurs, never really been an issue...a no brainer. I have delighted in my struggles easily as much as I have in my successes. Regrets are informers as much as rewards are affirmers. If you choose to blame anyone/anything for perceived maltreatment then be ready to credit those same for your winnings.

There are only two maximally liberating events allowed to any cognitive traveler: one is the absolute isolation of indepependent creative activity (and you must be accomplished enough to know how irregularly this actually happens) and the other is handing over of THE entire world to your own child (because no adult would have the nerve to take it from you). The very fortunate might get to do both.

All the good things we all do, whether they are vertibrate depictions, outlandish contraptions, metal junk symphonics, smoothed-over globulas or bright and shiny totemics; cannot ever be fully appreciated for their worth by any other's eye. Our progress, from one piece to the next, might be shattering, while the casual viewer, collector, purchaser, critic, only likes to see it as more of the same. So effin what. Pigeonholing, classifying or "cohesifying" another persons work only exhibits, for all to see, a weakness of comprehension.

As far as making a living goes...scultpors are by far the best equipped to do this; having tactile, technical and manual skills achieved. If your having a problem with this...this "living" thing, then maybe you're not being creative enough. A tiny spec of creativity (NOT initiative, NOT invention, not adaptation...CREATIVITY) amongst a sea of blithering and repetitive happenstance will easily yield all the "living" you will ever need to fuel the Art.

There are no two pathways alike. Trade school, apprenticeships, teaching, studenting, books, demonstrations, recollections, forgettings...only WE know whats really on our mind ALL OF THE TIME (and we should leave it at that).

[Dustin Faddis]

I have delighted in my struggles easily as much as I have in my successes. Regrets are informers as much as rewards are affirmers...

All the good things we all do, whether they are vertibrate depictions, outlandish contraptions, metal junk symphonics, smoothed-over globulas or bright and shiny totemics; cannot ever be fully appreciated for their worth by any other's eye. Our progress, from one piece to the next, might be shattering, while the casual viewer, collector, purchaser, critic, only likes to see it as more of the same. So effin what. Pigeonholing, classifying or "cohesifying" another persons work only exhibits, for all to see, a weakness of comprehension.

- (yes, perhaps they are viewing the work in an isolated moment in thought that limits both perspective and practice. I like your thoughts! Very process oriented, very gracious, very hopeful!)

A tiny spec of creativity (NOT initiative, NOT invention, not adaptation...CREATIVITY) amongst a sea of blithering and repetitive happenstance will easily yield all the "living" you will ever need to fuel the Art.
-:D(creativity is such a beautiful gift. I wonder why it seems to be such a universal activity in the life of humans. perhaps its a reflection of what has and is occuring in the earth and environment around them and perhaps it's a mimicking process to be like the Creator, and perhaps its an opportunity to catch up with the process of learning and growing that has perpetuated the individual from its time of birth. and, perhaps its relevance and pursuit is achieved in for a variety of other factors. nonetheless, I sure enjoy this opportunity, process, and experience!)

There are no two pathways alike. Trade school, apprenticeships, teaching, studenting, books, demonstrations, recollections, forgettings...only WE know whats really on our mind ALL OF THE TIME (and we should leave it at that) --

-(good form. blessings to all who pursue their desires, learning, working, and experiencing such a fascinating pursuit!).

thanks for sharing! note my responses to individual quotes are identified by this mark: -

cheers

[travelbud838]

Hey Dustin, here's a side note. Noticed you make reference to Jesus at the bottom of your post. You may not realize it ......but there's the Jesus art crowd, then there's the non-Jesus art crowd. They don't mix very well. You'll have to choose which camp you fall into, then proceed from there. Finding a middle ground is an option but will require deception on your part which may be objectionable. I bring this up because the " Art World " is more or less the secular humanist world, talk of prophets may hurt your bottom line. It all depends on presentation. Heads up, it may be a factor, at least as it relates to making a living .

While I agree, most serious art collectors are eccentric in nature, most still have some form of faith based beliefs. 84% of all Americans practice and believe in some form of Judeo Christianity and 93% of all Americans believe in a creator or God-like figure as the key component in life formation.

So when you folks refer to Christians as the last few remaining dinosaurs walking planet earth, you are sadly mistaken. Yes, even flaming, left-wing liberals have their beliefs. To imply that nobody is going to buy this guys artwork because he mentions Jesus, is absurd. Now a "bible thumper" I agree would not likely fare well in this arena, but someone with faith based beliefs? Again, most all people have them.

Art sells itself. If people are drawn to it, they will buy it. They don;t care if someone says their nightly prayers.

[outsider]

Go to college Dustin. It will keep your work from being shallow. Everything is psuedo-science when you have a high school education.

[Dustin Faddis]

Go to college Dustin. It will keep your work from being shallow. Everything is psuedo-science when you have a high school education.

ok, well, I have a B.A. in Philosophy and 75% on my way to completing a M.A. in Community counseling. I will be pursuing some sculpting classes at a community college or university when I move. I don't think that I'll be needing a MFA to produce and sell my work. I look for opportunities to learn regardless of a university environment, but I will and do pursue discussion of art with current professionals and Professors. And, I agree that limited education will limit work to some degree, and I believe I will always pursue learning regardless of what programs I enter.

cheers

[outsider]

I assumed wrong. Thought you were contemplating college or apprenticeship and I thought you were heading towards a life completely dedicated to art. Community counseling takes you away from sculpting. Not saying community counseling is bad. My own view is that I'm sick and tired of half assed shallow shlock flooding the market and preventing good developed work from even being seen. I mean if you are gonna do it...then do it...or get the hell out and buy your art instead of trying to make it.

I'm going to now place a 12 volt battery on the supply side of a 1200 watt inverter to allow ac curent to flow to the octehedron armature motor within the Y-16 engine and test the circuits. just one small step of many... Psuedo science until it works. Time travel - no ...inner-space travel - yes.

1 hour later.....argh...3 way switch wired wrong

2 hours later...nope..bad switch..replaced

[tobias]

In my view most sculpture is created using common tools from some industry. I dont think you need to go to school or even aprentise to a sculptor. Find a tradesman who needs help,learn the tools, clean up, learn to work hard. If you do this you will gain the respect of that person then they will show you how to do any thing. If any of you think being the son of a trades person has made it easier for Sam you are a fool. Trades people work hard using very precise methods( not half ass art instruction). you may know how to use a welding machiene but you probably dont know how to weld. I bet Sam can do anything that shop can. That is invaluable knowledge. Sorry about the rant. If you learn from a trades person you get to develop your own style not be influenced by profs.

[jOe~]

I mean if you are gonna do it...then do it...or get the hell out and buy your art instead of trying to make it. Nah, if its worth doing its worth doing badly. With your attitude no one would sing Karaoke or play golf or "dance like the stars". It could put comedians out of business.

[outsider]

Knowledge is tools.

[evaldart]

Knowledge is tools.

No way O, knowledge can just as easily be the opposite of tools. It can clutter, inhibit and destroy a potential good thing. It can send you down a path by teasing you with the charade of "answers". Answers are candy and baubles. Schooling and study only prepares you for a lifetime of functioning and participating. Things that end up happening even without cramming more and more in your head. Knowledge is everywhere...not a rare or unique thing at all. Better of to avoid it...or shed some if you've foolishly accrued too much. If your not depending at least 50% on your physicality, your bodily meanderings, your tactile engorgings, your shin-cracking interactions with the reality that surrounds you...then you are only doing life half way. Your best tool is your body...use it up.

[grommet]

E, just because you have the tools does not mean you have to use all of them all the time. Sure you can make art with the barest of essentials, but wouldn't you rather have the choice sometimes of what "tools" to use?

Your best tool is your body...use it up.
Better to use it wisely, your body will wear out before your brain does most likely. Feelin' superhuman again?

[cheesepaws]

In my view most sculpture is created using common tools from some industry. I dont think you need to go to school or even aprentise to a sculptor. Find a tradesman who needs help,learn the tools, clean up, learn to work hard. If you do this you will gain the respect of that person then they will show you how to do any thing.

That assumes that the "sculpting" starts when the tools get picked up. Not usually the case in my book.

[sculptorsam]

That assumes that the "sculpting" starts when the tools get picked up. Not usually the case in my book.

I agree, the specific tools are not particularly important. The value lies in learning to work and think as a craftsman. Finishing tasks within a given set of tolerances teaches discipline, attention and multi-step thought. These skills translate quite well to envisioning a sculpture, planning it's execution and following through on the labor required, regardless of the particular tools used.

[craigktx]

on what level, what makes you, $$$$
to hell with the mill
i did it my way, didnt need any help or instruction
grab your favor it tool and make something
how many piece does it take to make you successful?
i did it, maybe not NY style but i make a living

[wolff]

Your best tool is your body...use it up.

Sure, with the caveat that your most important muscle is your brain.

If you are clever, determined, and deferential to the professors, I think you can get what you want as a part-time student for a fraction of the cost, but you might have to fish around through a few schools....

I agree with this absolutely. But, the biggest thing matriculating in an MFA program gets you is time. Time to learn and pick brains, sure. But just as importantly, it gives you time to try new things and screw them up badly. And time to pick out some interesting side effects from those mistakes and try something new. And then time to hone that into a finished body of work.

There is also lots of money to be had for full time students.

Bill
www.billwolff.net

[evaldart]

The brain is no muscle. Its a pompous insufferable sponge. Needs to be taken down a notch or two...put in its place, dethroned, usurped, deflated, exposed and cut-down to size. Your body is the manhandler or actuality, it feels the strain of existence...pays the price. Let that body decide things and your work will connect authentically...as opposed to fictitiously.

[sculptor]

The brain is no muscle. Its a pompous insufferable sponge. Needs to be taken down a notch or two...put in its place, dethroned, usurped, deflated, exposed and cut-down to size. Your body is the manhandler or actuality, it feels the strain of existence...pays the price. Let that body decide things and your work will connect authentically...as opposed to fictitiously.

once upon a time
and a long time ago it was,
the human body was confused
and needed to
find a boss
the hands said they should be boss because they reached out to the world
the eyes said they should be boss because they were the means of seeing the world
the mouth screamed that it should be boss because it communicated and initiated the feeding of the rest of the body
the lungs said they should be boss because they gave the power of oxygenation to the body's furnace
the stomach said it should be boss because it processed the fuel for the body's furnace
the muscles said they should be boss because they motivated the body
the bones said they should be boss because without them the muscles would be worthless
and so it went in a raging cacophony of ever louder conflicting views
until,
after one really loud bellow that sounded suspiciously like a bronx cheer
he shut himself off
soon
the stomach felt pain and refused more food
the eyes grew bleary
the muscles grew weak
etc...etc
and the body slumped to the ground
weak and exhausted
and all the disparate elements agreed
to let the asshole be the boss

and so it has been ever since

[chris 71]

that was hilarious sculptor and so true. did you just make that one up on the fly or have you been waiting to use it :D

[outsider]

Personally, I'm offended and quite tired of art that is made without thought. Gesture and spontanaiety are wonderful but just how much does that say? Twisted abstract forms or copied forms of nature ..... yawn

"It is the duty of the artist to bring beauty to the people and conjure thought among them". I forget who said this but we all agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder but it is a challenge to get people thinking.

Simply, ...the more you know .... the more you can say!

[grommet]

The brain is no muscle. Its a pompous insufferable sponge. Needs to be taken down a notch or two...put in its place, dethroned, usurped, deflated, exposed and cut-down to size. Your body is the manhandler or actuality, it feels the strain of existence...pays the price. Let that body decide things and your work will connect authentically...as opposed to fictitiously

I can only begin to guess that the sparks that ignite your brain have leached into your greedy body, which has volunteered to perform all tasks. This leaves the upper cathedral a cavity to collect words to be sneered at by the rest of the proudly suffering corporeal mess. The fingers flippantly type words stolen once more from the skull. Thief.

On another note, I agree beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Beauty as a goal is trite.

[GlennT]

Sculptor's poetic offering reminded me (not in style but in subject) of a poem I wrote in eighth grade, which I am able to share because somehow my mom had saved my eigth grade journal all these years, found it when sorting through stuff, and mailed it to me a couple years ago to my great suprise.
And here it is, unedited:

The Body


Mr. Skin fought Ferdanand Arm
He was hitting high and low
The battle looked pretty decisive
but in came Mr. Toe.

Toe took Skin
and belted him
He had him on hands and knees,
But in came Joe Disease.

Joe took Toe
With a nasty blow
and made him scream in pain.
Then came Frank Brain.

Pretty soon the whole body was fighting,
Swinging to and fro.
It was a little bloody, kind of cruddy
But Silence was demanded by Joe.

Said He, "This ain't fair
to the man out there,
He was sleeping peacefully
but is now having a Nightmare

And it is all because of us.
After all it is he who feeds us
Cleans us, Rests us, and other stuff.
Let's stop this fight, its getting rough"

So they stopped the fight
And all was right
The Man woke up safe and sound.
For traces of the fight he never found.

[evaldart]

Personally, I'm offended and quite tired of art that is made without thought. Gesture and spontanaiety are wonderful but just how much does that say? Twisted abstract forms or copied forms of nature ..... yawn

"It is the duty of the artist to bring beauty to the people and conjure thought among them". I forget who said this but we all agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder but it is a challenge to get people thinking.

Simply, ...the more you know .... the more you can say!

Offended, c'mon O...we're not a bunch of pansie-assed flatties and braniacs here. But I understand...YOU would never offend anyone. :D

Yeah Sculptor...great stuff...
You too, Glenn...writing poetry in junior high makes you tough (ass whoopins). Helps you prepare your body for the worst...so you end up a sculptor.

[jOe~]

On another note, I agree beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Of course...duh?
Beauty as a goal is trite. You are always rewarded by something beautiful, how can beauty be trite as a goal. What is a better goal? Trite?


Also to GlennT: thanks for sharing the neat little poem.

[jOe~]

YOU would never offend anyone. ROTFLMAO!!!!

[rika]

Simply, ...the more you know .... the more you can say!

I have to reflect on this, because a while ago I was thinking, the more I know the less I have to say. Interesting.

[grommet]

On another note, I agree beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Of course...duh?Beauty as a goal is trite. You are always rewarded by something beautiful, how can beauty be trite as a goal. What is a better goal?

Trite?

Duh back atcha buddy.
Yeah, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, fickle, unless you're pretty mainstream walmart shallow pleasable. Better to have any other thing as a goal and potential beauty a mere by-product of your efforts. Why would your soul/sole goal be airhead eyecandy? Oh, maybe you're a walmart afficionado. Nevermind.
Are you satisfied with never going past pleased, or do you wish to surpass that and head toward glowing screaming joy?

[I seek]

This response goes back a few posts to what I think original intentions were. I offer no clear answers to what Dustin was inquiring, however I do wish the best of luck to any of you aspiring sculptors with ANY sort of technical skill. It has been my experience that most sculptors do not want any actual skilled fabrication help. So maybe with the degree and little technical working knowledge- the floor sweeper position may be had. If however you are talented with your hands as well as your mind finding someone that would utilize your skills and thus improve themselves and you may be futile. I suppose only time will tell.

[jOe~]

Are you satisfied with never going past pleased, or do you wish to surpass that and head toward glowing screaming joy? What have I been missing? Gulp! Oh, please some examples. My heart is racing, my palms are sweaty, ... Glowing screaming joy. I want that. Forget David Smith's beautiful stainless cubes and tubes. I repent.

[GlennT]

On another note, I agree beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Beauty as a goal is trite.




Yeah, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, fickle, unless you're pretty mainstream walmart shallow

I think our ideas of beauty must be wildly divergent. Prior to this thread it would never occur to me to include walmart in a discussion of beauty. Not that beauty is entirely absent from there..if it is there, it is hard to discern under the glare of flourescent lights and retailer miasma.

The beauty that I respond to is so far from trite, that trite is another word, like walmart, that does not enter into my contemplation of it.

Let us take you, for example. If I were to sculpt your portrait, I would be drawn to your inner beauty, and my perception of that as expressed through your outer form. THAT would be the subject of my contemplation, and my love for that inner beauty would move my fingers to do my best to portray that which I percieve, in the hopes that others could be as moved and glimpse the inner beauty that transcends the outer inconsistencies. That which I percieve as the inner beauty is a more permanent aspect of consciousness, which far from being trite is deeply profound.

[grommet]

Cool, I wouldn't have to brush my hair.:rolleyes:

In that hypothetical instance, the goal is to interpret your perception into a tangible form. The goal is not beauty.
Next.

Joe, you can ask Glenn about the glowing screaming joy. He has transcended the corporeal and can attest to more worthy paths.

[jOe~]

So here I am defending GlennT, who wudda thunk? In that hypothetical instance, the goal is to interpret your perception into a tangible form. The goal is not beauty.
Next. GlennT said : "I would be drawn to your inner beauty, and my perception of that as expressed through your outer form. THAT would be the subject of my contemplation, and my love for that inner beauty would move my fingers". And, you said " beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Seems very clear to me beauty is the goal. I bet he could pull it off, despite any scowl you might throw his way. We'll let that "glowing screaming joy" fade away (though I have seen art do that to people, but its very rare and not some thing I strive for).

[grommet]

GlennT said : "I would be drawn to your inner beauty, and my perception of that as expressed through your outer form. THAT would be the subject of my contemplation, and my love for that inner beauty would move my fingers". And, you said " beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Seems very clear to me beauty is the goal. I bet he could pull it off, despite any scowl you might throw his way. We'll let that "glowing screaming joy" fade away (though I have seen art do that to people, but its very rare and not some thing I strive for).

While he may appreciate his perception, the goal is still interpretation, unless he is just whoring inner beauty.

I'm still going for the larger metaphor. Enjoy walmart.

[GlennT]

Well, gosh darn it, now I'm defending jOe. See what the Christmas spirit can do to people?!

Perception, interpretation, whatever, still, the subject is beauty. The object is the interpretation, but the artist (me, in this case) is drawn to, captivated by, moved to put aside all else so as to meditate upon and translate into another medium the inner ( and perhaps outer) beauty perceived.

As jOe points out, all scowls, along with grimaces, hedging, hemming and hawing, etc. will not distract me from that contemplation. And if it weren't there, I would not be interested.

I think you should drop the walmart thing. I don't think it is resonating with either jOe or me. Besides, Target is closer.:D

[jOe~]

And if it weren't there, I would not be interested. Hmmm. Gommet may not be inspiring...enough? What do you detect on your inner beauty sensors? Now as for me you know I'm so full of it which is why sometimes you can't deal with it.

[Aaron Schroeder]

My idea of beauty is finding exactly what you need when you need it. Found only in a moment, not in any particular formal configuration.

Making a living making things is less about the thing and more about setting up peoples perceptions. Changing how people see/sense things is what we get paid to do. We tend to focus on objects, but our objects function primarily to frame/encapsulate events.

What is it were selling ?

[tonofelephant]

Aaron,

Like any good marketing person would tell you, we are selling the sizzle - the steak (or other treat) is just along for the ride.

Carl

[GlennT]

Hmmm. Gommet may not be inspiring...enough? What do you detect on your inner beauty sensors? Now as for me you know I'm so full of it which is why sometimes you can't deal with it.

I would have to tread delicately to answer that. In grommet I find plenty there to inspire, shyly tucked away to avoid hurt and covered with a heap of attitude. The good sense of humor is welcome as well, although that often comes out as "inner rascal" rather than "inner beauty". But joy is a beautiful thing.

As for you, let me first generalize by saying that there is hardly a person to whom one could not dig deep enough to find that inner beauty. In your case it would not require a backhoe either, nor even a a huge shovel. It would merely require a cease fire in discussing a topic or two, such as politics, religion, art, social concerns, music, literature, philosophy, history, sex, psychology, spirituality, the universe, the multiverse, particle physics, quantum mechanics, sports, food, bicycle tire tread seperation issues, psychic phenomena, UFO's, nutrition, the GNP of Canada, dental floss...

[grommet]

Okay Glenn & Joe, whoring beauty at Target it is. You seek only to produce beauty, adding no interpretation or insight or anything meaningful. An empty gesture devoid of anything but look, ain't it purty. Nothing special in your insight, just replication. Goal attained.

Hmmm. Grommet may not be inspiring...enough?
Luckily, I am here for my amusement, not yours.:p:)

Well thanks Glenn, but it's more likely a slab of attitude thinly frosted with civility that the cat took a swipe of when no one was looking so a MIG gun was used to write "best of luck, Roxy". And it's all good.

[jOe~]

GlennT:It would merely require a cease fire in discussing a topic or two, such as politics, religion, art, social concerns, music, literature, philosophy, history, sex, psychology, spirituality, the universe, the multiverse, particle physics, quantum mechanics, sports, food, bicycle tire tread seperation issues, psychic phenomena, UFO's, nutrition, the GNP of Canada, dental floss... Well duh(your"duh", Gommie had hers). I told you I was full of it and here you go leaving more than half of it out. You think I'm illiterate or something?

You do have Grommie's number though.

Grommet:Okay Glenn & Joe, whoring beauty at Target it is. You seek only to produce beauty, adding no interpretation or insight or anything meaningful. An empty gesture devoid of anything but look, ain't it purty. Nothing special in your insight, just replication. Goal attained. Re-read GlennT's comments--he is not looking for outer beauty. He didn't even mention your physical appearance. I refuse to go back and count the number of times we used inner. That is your penance. No replication involved...and attaining the goal is always "iffy". I can't even imagine doing it. Thus my beauty is found in humbler(more stubborn) materials.

[jOe~]

I can read. I'm making a point about interpretation. Duh, Joe.
Well duh back again. Of course it is an interpretation no matter how transparent you are--we are talking about, reminding you again, inner. as Glenn said: ...In grommet I find plenty there to inspire, shyly tucked away to avoid hurt and covered with a heap of attitude. He is looking at the very place you refuse to acknowledge. Sorry for the baseball bat approach. I'm done. Back to the dug out.

[cheesepaws]

Oh, maybe you're a walmart afficionado.

Wait..I am. Is that a bad thing? I adore mass production, repetition of form, symmetrical display, and the notion of the individually designed verses the machine made...whoa...I'm starting to get a bit light headed. I have made a number of pieces about the unique object that is also mass-made. Wal-mart (and its box store kin) make excellent research libraries.

[grommet]

go for it dude, I was slinging a different metaphor, so you still have dibs.

[evaldart]

I quite like Walmart when I'm out amonst them, in costume. Cheap stuff, necessities such as Doritos, deisel oil, Super Saver cd's (I always seem to need a new Hey Jude), AA batteries, 50 more pounds of Dog Chow (though my ancient hound Tank is troubled with heart failure - it hasn't slowed his appetite), mums, welcome mats, snow shovels, Right Guard, legos, Sponge Bob, chicken legs (a dozen for 2.89!), soda pop, sweat shirts, 45 lb plates, Liquid Plumber...whew!...and then the Evaldart crew loads back into the crew cab of the 350, replenished and ready.

But unless you care to bother with popular culture trivialities, theres nothing Artworthy there.

It is not the job of the Artist to look into the doings of his kind, nor is it his job to inform them of anything. "Something to say" is a low-set bar.

We all have awakened in a place...this place, that must not interfere, must not thwart, must not deter or distract - if we are to occasionally encounter pertinences...which, as we become less bound, will turn out to be the ONLY worthy things there are.

[cheesepaws]

But unless you care to bother with popular culture trivialities, theres nothing Artworthy there.

It is not the job of the Artist to look into the doings of his kind, nor is it his job to inform them of anything. "Something to say" is a low-set bar.

Unless you are one of those artists who raise the bar beyond simple bodily fumblings with fire and muscle - who DO say something...the very job of artists... then the happenings, causes and effects, and raw everythingnesses of Wal-mart become as ripe and wondrous as an especially ripe and wondrous thing...on a stick.

Please E! Don’t you get lonely being the self-ordained proselytizer of the church of the non-contextualized, culturally void, poetically empty yet fully-engaged with thine body, make-it-big and scribble free art object making? :rolleyes:

[evaldart]

Cheese, the best thing about the creative process - and if you're only "fumbling" with your body then you've not yet scratched the surface of your potential - IS that it doesn't care HOW it begins or how it ends. This special activity or heightened event or episode serves DURING its occurrence. The poem you read before this act that you will quote as your inspiration; and the bauble that you nail to the wall are NOT really part of the Art. But the human-ness we endure is indeed handy for getting into the swing of things and also for reflecting upon those better moments when we were in the thick of it...when fire and muscle (or whatever you got) is making ALL the decisions.

[GlennT]

Therefore, if I'm following this correctly, Evaldart's studio would be a better representation of an art museum than the Met or the Louvre.

[evaldart]

Well, if you say so Glenn. But actually, cherished as it is, the studio, anyone's, is just an outfitted and personalized place (unless its also your home and you bed-down with the chain-saws and wake-up with screws stuck in your beard). I'd sooner compare my studio to a boxing gym or an old-man bar.
The Metropolitan Museum of Art is one of my favorite places in the world, and I still go there very often to sort through all the evidence of great creative endeavors already accomplished - its so nice to know for sure that those thing happened. But most of the displayed handiworks are quite unworthy of an Artists attention..its okay, though, because they didn't make those places for US. Museums are like Walmart, Yankee Stadium and Disneyland...our arms and legs and chattering head-boxes will get us in - for a good time - but then it must be back to where we belong...there, wherever that may be, amid another solitary physical engagement against some matter that would RATHER NOT do what we wish it would do.

[jOe~]

...when fire and muscle (or whatever you got) is making ALL the decisions. That almost sounds like a back handed disclaimer or escape clause. In fact, if I was going to think about this, this is what I'd latch on to . But, I know it points to the essential elements that are only confused by ordinary thinking and start unspeakable and unintelligible arguments when it is thought about without knowing first what it is your thought is trying to elucidate. You can't be anal about it. That can be an Herculean task, like the vernacular saying goes, to "get your head out of your ass". The work can be done without even dealing directly with this if you focus on the real problem of why some matter that would RATHER NOT do what we wish it would do.

[evaldart]

Yer right Joe. I should have said "WHAT" you got" rather than "whatever". What I meant was that we all possess varying, unique and unusual ways, methods, strengths, etc., when it comes to getting the Art done. There-in lies all the promise and potency.

[jOe~]

Yer right Joe. I should have said "WHAT" you got" rather than "whatever". Well, whatever(as in teen speak). I was just agreeing and not saying you should have used a different word because that is on the verge of being anal. I was just re-stating what might not be obvious for those inclined to think about this.

[wolff]

What I meant was that we all possess varying, unique and unusual ways, methods, strengths, etc., when it comes to getting the Art done. There-in lies all the promise and potency.

Amen. Do your work.

Bill
www.billwolff.net

[cheesepaws]

Cheese, the best thing about the creative process - and if you're only "fumbling" with your body then you've not yet scratched the surface of your potential - IS that it doesn't care HOW it begins or how it ends. This special activity or heightened event or episode serves DURING its occurrence. The poem you read before this act that you will quote as your inspiration; and the bauble that you nail to the wall are NOT really part of the Art. But the human-ness we endure is indeed handy for getting into the swing of things and also for reflecting upon those better moments when we were in the thick of it...when fire and muscle (or whatever you got) is making ALL the decisions.

Naw. Art IS a social function that draws strength from connectivity. The art IS the act (on that we agree) AND the subject AND the object (or experience). To limit art to some self-indulgent solo act of creation is meditation at best and masturbation at worst.

scratch that – reverse it

[evaldart]

Cheese you're too sharp a fellow to always use the jerk-off metaphor against any solitary undertaking.


We-all service our race, country and community best when we have individually plowed ahead. They house, feed and occupy us during the down-time EXACTLY so we are fit and ready to persevere against the unimaginable (they like their "unimaginable" in very tiny portions). They're not as stupid as you think though, and our prevailings do NOT go unnoticed. You dont have to spoonfeed them, draw their attention or even consider them during the creative process...you can do all of that the REST of the time.

[cheesepaws]

Cheese you're too sharp a fellow to always use the jerk-off metaphor against any solitary undertaking.

I call 'em as I see 'em. However, I'll let up on that particular comparison if you lighten up on the "scribblers". I like those guys.

We-all service our race, country and community best when we have individually plowed ahead. They house, feed and occupy us during the down-time EXACTLY so we are fit and ready to persevere against the unimaginable (they like their "unimaginable" in very tiny portions). They're not as stupid as you think though, and our prevailings do NOT go unnoticed. You dont have to spoonfeed them, draw their attention or even consider them during the creative process...you can do all of that the REST of the time.

Poetic - but not what I mean. We've been down this path before. You profess "worthy" art as some near spiritual separation from other cultural/political/societal/visual/etc context in a rarified moment of making - I don't believe such a thing is possible - nor art "worthy" - except, perhaps, as a conceptual exercise. "Stupid" and "Spoonfed"? Who are these "they" that you reference? Not my words. Viewers bring what they want to the work - the maker need not acknowledge a viewer or other influences. What we do (as artists) is the most mundane and common of acts in the end - we make, we gawk, we destroy. Nothing special there - until you begin to intellectually rationalize it and name it.

I still don't get how what you call artmaking is much more than meditation or...chopping wood?

[evaldart]

THIS, is chopping wood...or making a living. I try to make it FEEL like sculpture but I know damn well what it ...isnt. These things might keep you conditioned for the real thing...and THEY will always love them...but I cant save anyone with these.

bench, forged round bars up to 1 1/4, forged 1/4 inch plate, 500 lbs 7 feet long.

[Aaron Schroeder]

An artist can exercise his or her freedom to label their work any way they want.

Evaldart presents a piece that has many sculptural qualities, yet would not claim that he thinks he's made a sculpture. He's calling it " Chopped Wood ". I expect most people would call it a " Bench " or a " Love Seat " or something like that. The large horizontal surface dominates the composition and would be readily associated with benches by those who are accustomed to cultural environments with benches.

Turn that bench on it's side so that the dominant horizontal surface becomes a dominant vertical surface and the whole composition would have different associations from which people might draw different meanings. They might even be so distracted by all the busy lines that they wouldn't even see the bench and might even for lack of better words call it an abstract sculpture.

Often times the only difference between a work of art/sculpture and any other thing is presentation. An object becomes a work of art when it is presented as art. A work of art can become a thing to sit on when it is presented as something to sit on. Presentation is everthing .

When it comes to making a living exchanging objects for money, the methods that you use to present the object can influence someone to give you more or less money for that object. If Evaldart posts that picture on Craig'slist or ebay he might not make as much money as he would if he suspended it in a vat of formaldihide and proudly displayed it in a reputable museum.

[cheesepaws]

THIS, is chopping wood...or making a living. I try to make it FEEL like sculpture but I know damn well what it ...isnt. These things might keep you conditioned for the real thing...and THEY will always love them...but I cant save anyone with these.

Ouch! Short pants...hot summer day....Evaldart's revenge. :eek:

Damn nice bench.

[grommet]

The difference is what you know in your heart. Yep, it's a damn fine bench, and on its side, something else. But marketing aside, if Evaldart believes it's just a bench, then he needs to go with that or he's compromising the powerhouse that runs the behemoth artmaker. Next thing you know he'd be makin' lace doilies and drinking tea with the people from the society pages, explaining the relevence of garden benches in popular art.

[EJB]

Making art is one thing. Making a living and art simultaneously is a juggle we all deal with in our own ways. The trick to doing anything successfully is to keep your greater goal and purpose in mind while you whore yourself unspeakably to satisfy your habit. Take a lesson from the MOCA in Los Angeles which is in danger of dropping all the balls by being too single minded.
www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/arts/design/05moca.html?hp
I'd like to echo all of those here who have summed up this topic by saying, just get to work. Making art may be a satisfying experience but working to support your art can also be a learning experience.

[outsider]

The only function of fine art is aesthetic. Any other additional function renders the object as a craft object. Evaldarts bench is craft. A sculpted bench and a mighty fine bench! Since Evaldart employed many of the same techniques as he would a sculpture, he is still sculpting but the end product is craft. Myself, I call this sort of thing commercial art. I think all sculptors make some commercial art and can still consider themselves fulltime sculptors.

[evaldart]

The only function of fine art is aesthetic. Any other additional function renders the object as a craft object. Evaldarts bench is craft. A sculpted bench and a mighty fine bench! Since Evaldart employed many of the same techniques as he would a sculpture, he is still sculpting but the end product is craft. Myself, I call this sort of thing commercial art. I think all sculptors make some commercial art and can still consider themselves fulltime sculptors.

...yep.

[jOe~]

And put a row of tire spikes on the seat and it becomes...

[grommet]

a fanny aerator?

[cheesepaws]

The only function of fine art is aesthetic. Any other additional function renders the object as a craft object.

You can sit on a Judd, Michelangelo and a Rodin too - does that make them craft objects?

What about this Jeppe Hein piece:

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x27/cheesepaws/artwork_images_423775681_272091_jep.jpg

[StevenW]

You can sit on a Judd, Michelangelo and a Rodin too - does that make them craft objects?



Right Cheese,

About his "Slide Mantra", Noguchi said "The completion of this sculpture will be when children polish it with their bottoms as they slide down."

Evaldart is just being humble and coy.. Forget the spikes and anything else, some butt patination may well finish that one off too.

[evaldart]

Look, you could sit on a George Rickey if you wanted to...bottom line: if function/utility was designed into the piece, it is NOT Art...it might still be good, and a powerful visual treat, it might even involve much of the same activity, but its not Art. Art should be reserved for the creative efforts that ignore and EXCLUDE usefulnes.

[StevenW]

Pfft. :D

[GlennT]

Back when I was in silent mode, Ries made an excellent post on the "is it art" topic, using the grillwork of Gaudi as an example. For someone who is so much more focused on process as art rather than object, I am suprised that evaldart is so picky about functionality of the object as being a determining factor. I wonder whether you would consider carved African masks (functional) as art.

As for me, I would love it if creators or manufacturers of objects of utility treated them as though the were art. I went to an idyllically-designed grade school built in 1915. The architecture, the grounds, the niches, corners, mouldings, tiles, decorative elements, even the sculpted cement sundial base and the stone goldfish pond were of a thoughtful and artistic nature. The effects of such works on my psyche were as profound as objects of art with no utility.

If craftsmen become better artists, and artists better craftsman, we may not need to concern ourselves with drawing such distinctions.

[StevenW]

In sculpture, the law of conservation of Art states that the total amount of Art in an isolated system remains constant. A consequence of this law is that Art cannot be created or destroyed. The only thing that can happen with Art in an isolated system is that it can change form, that is to say for instance non-functional Art can become functional Art. Another consequence of this law is that perpetual Art can only work if it delivers no greater amount of Art to its surroundings than it uses and that free Art, that is to say Art that produces more Artness than is put into it, is impossible.

[cheesepaws]

Look, you could sit on a George Rickey if you wanted to...bottom line: if function/utility was designed into the piece, it is NOT Art...it might still be good, and a powerful visual treat, it might even involve much of the same activity, but its not Art. Art should be reserved for the creative efforts that ignore and EXCLUDE usefulnes.

Who is to say whether your "bench" will be perceived as having utility or not?

It may look like a bench and act like a bench - but that doesn't automatically make it a bench.

[Dustin Faddis]

if function/utility was designed into the piece, it is NOT Art...Art should be reserved for the creative efforts that ignore and EXCLUDE usefulnes.

Maybe I'm just stuck on the language here, but it seems no matter what the "art" does or how one is inclined to interact with it(look, feel, touch, taste, smell) I would say that it still has a "function/utility" and also a "usefulness". Even if it has use as in the sense of providing the task like that of any daily-life used object, but marks the qualities of being admired a fine object that reflects the creative thoughts and actions of its maker, it can be called art. But, I think I see your desire here to establish a special sort of category and fondness to something that is much much different from daily-life objects and their jobs. I like that, and I think there are such distinguishing marks. And of the special marks, I think your bench exhibits a good many:

- tactfully made
- creative- exhibits the manifestation of thoughts marked by the culmination of other things like desire and feeling.
- It's one of a kind (made with materials uniquely combined to form this object)
- it provides each viewer with an opportunity to be experienced in a variety of ways (this function is not bound by visual appreciation only and to my great delight it offers its hand to touch, specifically with my butt).

Nonetheless, I respect your categorization of your work and appreciate how this peice demonstrates a variety of learned and processed-fine skills. The quality-finish is distinguished.

Now, because it is "presented" as something which I may sit, it is limited is some degree as to being able to capture my attention as particularily fascinating and of interest, like something that you and I would probably agree on as being "fine art". Perhaps, the interesting note is that it resembles something that has appeared to us before in relation to our culture and our visual and experiential recolection/memory. Perhaps, the common perception and understanding of a "bench" inhibits my fascination and interest to admire the marked qualities that I just characterized as "art". And, when I sit on it, I'm not able to visually see all the different aspects of it. However, my interest in interacting with pieces on all possible sensory levels lead me to desire to interact with the "art" in a way that is not common to other fine art experiences. Perhaps this is what inspires me to enjoy it as art?...

[Dustin Faddis]

In sculpture, the law of conservation of Art states that the total amount of Art in an isolated system remains constant. A consequence of this law is that Art cannot be created or destroyed. The only thing that can happen with Art in an isolated system is that it can change form, that is to say for instance non-functional Art can become functional Art. Another consequence of this law is that perpetual Art can only work if it delivers no greater amount of Art to its surroundings than it uses and that free Art, that is to say Art that produces more Artness than is put into it, is impossible.

This is interesting. I don't understand what "perpetual art" is. And when you refer to "delivers no greater amount of Art to its surroundings than it uses" are you refer to "uses" like it uses space? What does art "uses"? It seems that the only thing that produces "Artness" is its creator and those who say and act in response to the "Art". What do you mean by "Art produces more Artness"?

Cheers

[evaldart]

D, first of all, I understand your point completely and not just as it applys to that bench but as a general "way" of assessing the extraordinary. "Design" itself, which I see as a different brand of creativity than what happens with Art, is generally aimed at structure,embellishment, exhibition and facility. I look to participate in an Art that would wish to do none of these things. It is a continual chore, re-revealing to ourselves what Art is all about. But it makes other related conundrums seem easy. With honesty and purity we can learn to recognize the things that contaminate our efforts; and often the viral matter is coming from our "intent". When you have excused yourself of making the art "for" anything, then you have left maximal room for the unexpected - which then become shortly, yet another expected. To progress becomes a more difficult thing, and you will need a new accident each time...you wont always get it. So you lose one now and then. But in between the occurences of the Art - which cant happen at one's liesure (at one's travail, MAYBE) there are still desirable things to accomplish - and an artist who who can use his special abilities for these things is fortunate. But it is vital that there be marked separation, or you might begin to believe that your coffee-table or your light-fixture is art...and then where would that leave your art.

So, like the good Art-Fearie that I am (purity and honesty), I'll be dancing back off to the forge...I got some steel bars cookin.

[Dustin Faddis]

"Design" itself, which I see as a different brand of creativity than what happens with Art, is generally aimed at structure,embellishment, exhibition and facility. I look to participate in an Art that would wish to do none of these things. It is a continual chore, re-revealing to ourselves what Art is all about. But it makes other related conundrums seem easy. With honesty and purity we can learn to recognize the things that contaminate our efforts; and often the viral matter is coming from our "intent". When you have excused yourself of making the art "for" anything, then you have left maximal room for the unexpected - which then become shortly, yet another expected.

Well, you seem like a very fascinating thinker. I'm just a humble creator of what I like to muse as art. Your comments about "design" and "intent" are provoking thoughts. These seem to relate to what my wife said about making art last night when I told her I needed a design or direction for how I could place this method of shaping these structures. She told me that I just need to go out there and do it, just let it flow. This is appealing, because I guess I don't know exactly what I'm after or facisnated by, but I enjoy spontanuity and working with my hands. So, I guess it's about pursuing the process rather than pursuing the plan. And, this quality is both exciting and freightening! Heaven forbid that I mess up!:) I guess I just realized I need to give myself permission to fail. I guess the art will manifest as I go? Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I like your work and your thoughtfullness about what you do. I hope to do some forging of my own someday, right now I stick to forging rock-cement. May your fires stay burning! Blessings.

[StevenW]

This is interesting. I don't understand what "perpetual art" is. And when you refer to "delivers no greater amount of Art to its surroundings than it uses" are you refer to "uses" like it uses space? What does art "uses"? It seems that the only thing that produces "Artness" is its creator and those who say and act in response to the "Art". What do you mean by "Art produces more Artness"?

Cheers


It's nothing special, just physics, which in its purest form is the closest thing there is to art, (IMHO) like love is the closest thing to hate. Not opposites by any means, but rather similar things from opposing sides.. The law of conservation of energy with art substituted for energy is just an exercise in what Art potentially is or isn't. Art to me lies on a bit of a sliding scale, some has more art than craft, some more craft than art, some is almost pure art and some is almost pure matter/craft or non-art, but none of it is without some measure of both. Energy and matter are one and the same in different forms and matter and art are one and the same in different forms.

[outsider]

Is this art?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9nGWSi3NNE

or is it a craft?

[StevenW]

No, it's a time machine and by the way, when you get all the bugs worked out do me a favor and go here: 39.697558,-104.9118
100 meters to the east is a swimming pool, at 10:15 am, August 15th 1993 just walk by and kick me... I'll take care of the rest.

[outsider]

It's NOT a time machine. Thats what those who don't understand call it. So, as it sits, it's not art?

[StevenW]

Well so much for that idea then, I tried craigslist, but no one rents time machine services there yet I guess.

I can get a skidsteer pretty cheap though. :)

I dunno O, is it art or is it not... I think even an uncarved rock has some "artness" to it, be it minimal and the more energy/artness you put into that in the form of creativity, manual skill, passion combined with a dose of coincidence or luck will determine whether or not it is Art.. I'm not sure that pure Art can be achieved any more than pure energy can. There will always be some trade-off and if there weren't, then everything would be art or none of it would be art and I don't believe in that black and white stuff.

[outsider]

It's art. I just like trying to work up conversation about it. From the other side it looks like minamalism...a la Tony Smith.

[chris 71]

hey outsider ya i think you posted a pic this one before? but from the other side if i remember right you would never know that it is enter able

[evaldart]

O, it appaears that you've finally decided to "fill-up" some of your languishing geometric abstractions...turned them into new pieces altogether. Used-up alotta that stuff thats been layin' around. Thats great! You are blazing something here and your theatrical claims of barriers broken only add to it. Where once it was all about forms it is now about formulas (mathematical). You are exhibiting a restrained but apparent disdain for commerciality and attention exactly as you approach the media...straight-faced and empowered. You don't have to worry about flying anywhere because the seat of your pants is carrying you just fine. Its Art because, despite your proclamations, these things are being brought into the world for every purpose BUT function. I can't imagine where its all going but it damn sure looks exciting (now isnt this much better than the painted steel palm trees).

Your IQ must be dropping because you seem pointedly smarter these days.

[outsider]

My Y-16 vessel..er..sculpture was first built in 1997. Half was open and half was closed. The 2000 CBS video shows the vessel being tested live as a teleportation device. All the electronics but not the capacitors and coils, were stripped out during the Bush administration. In 2002 the piece was closed up completely, painted with blue aluminized enamel paint, and set in a field where it promptly attracted a tornado and was tipped over. It then was loaned to a city hall of a local suburb and then to a nite club. The engine was built as a stand alone Z.P.E. generator in 2004. Fall of 2008 the piece, now called Blue Diamonds, was brought back to the studio. Cuts into the piece were made quickly and the generator was retro-fitted becoming the engine. The DC circuit is yet to be completed so as the pilot headset.

Where is this going? One of the first to introduce parallel world theory was Ellie Carton a French Mathematician. He wrote letters to Albert Einstein. Einstein couldn't understand. Princeton compiled the letters in a book called Absolute Parallelism. Groups have built apparatus to journey to the parallel worlds. Y-16 is my ship. F-3 is the planet I started building 15 years ago. I've heard G7 has 300-500 people on it. I am Christopher Columbus!

[outsider]

The 3 day limit on editing comments is just not right. I find myself having to correct a previous comment for prosperity sake.

Plans were started for the stand alone generator in 2004 but the X-Gen itself was not completed until 2006-2007.

[StevenW]

The 3 day limit on editing comments is just not right. I find myself having to correct a previous comment for prosperity sake..

Interesting that you want to go back in time and undo one or two things yourself. I'm starting to think that the edit button is the cowards way out, it represents to me a way to rewrite history and it appears that there's a lot of people who wish they could do that,; from governers to car companies to forum posters... lol

[grommet]

I think it means we're capable of self assessment and/or learning.
That said, no regrets, just move on.

[StevenW]

That said, no regrets, just move on.

Exactly right, there's no edit button in life either, what is done is done and the future is as bright as you make it. I'm eyeing out an F-350 for next year, a decked out dinosaur bone chomping beast as something tells me there's going to be new lower prices on the horizon.

[outsider]

Life itself may not have an edit button however, ALL devices that record life do have edit buttons. This forum records words typed by individuals. There are indeed edit buttons on this forum. After 3 days, the power of the edit button is held solely by the administrator of this forum. I recorded a date wong in an above comment. I am unable to correct the date other than to make another post. I know without a doubt, that in a court of law, you could get your comments removed. There isn't even anything mentioned in the flimsy user aggreement about this. The writer retains copyright of their word.

[StevenW]

Ain't nuthin but a chicken wing O, peeples makes mistakes and they can and do often lead to the greatest successes.. Anyway, this has put me in the mood for some work and I was thinking about some semi-flatty stuff, your cruise ship was something that came to mind when I was looking at my blank claybord in the corner and well,.. off we go. :)

[bottegin]

Making a Living is an important issue for all of us here.
I do not think that having a degree or other certificate will mean that you will make a living from art. I think that taking a course may help you become a better artist but this doesn't always mean that you will find it easy to make a living out of art.
On the other hand, I know of artists who have had little or no training at all but they manage to make a living out of art.
While reading about history of art, one will find many excellent artists who have died in poverty and others who have died rich.
Making a living from art depends on many factors. Sometimes it is just a question of being in the right place in the right time.
I think that it is very difficult to decide to make a living entirely on art in a short span, unless one has some very good contacts. Especially during a recession.
Personally, I have decided to dedicate as much ime as possible to art and still keep a full time job until I build a reputation that is slowly growing with my talent.

[grommet]

dreams are the difference between aspirations and really intense hobbies.
or something...

[grommet]

so are you a sculptor, or do you like to make sculpture in your free time?

[chris 71]

arent edit buttons great

[Dustin Faddis]

so are you a sculptor, or do you like to make sculpture in your free time?

well, I don't know that I would make the distinction between a "sculptor" and "one who makes sculpture in your free time". But, I suppose the defining mark is making art full time and as a profession or source of income. I would like to call myself a "sculptor", but I have not chosen to pursue my passion as a source of income, so it is something that I think about doing when I'm not sculpting. Right now, I guess I "sculpt in my free time".

However, even if I did something other than sculpting on my free time and my non-free time was devoted to sculpting, I wouldn't like to label myself as a "sculptor", but rather label myself as a person who is passionate about creating. And this is how I label myself today.

I've taken a shot at interacting with what I perceive your definitions are, but I don't know if I've done so in the context of what your definitions are.

What are your defining marks?

[grommet]

It's difficult to perceive the context of my statements when the person i was talking to removed his posts. Chris?...
It sounds to me like you consider yourself an artist. My definition has nothing to do with money other than a hope for some. It is rather a passion and commitment to something as opposed to something you do to amuse yourself, similar to going to the movies or bowling, for instance. Not a flash in the pan, but part of your driving force, intrinsic.

[chris 71]

sorry mama bear those dang edit buttons are so tempting and we only get so long to push them. i will try to refrain from hitting them next time:):o

[Dustin Faddis]

It's difficult to perceive the context of my statements when the person i was talking to removed his posts. Chris?...
It sounds to me like you consider yourself an artist. My definition has nothing to do with money other than a hope for some. It is rather a passion and commitment to something as opposed to something you do to amuse yourself, similar to going to the movies or bowling, for instance. Not a flash in the pan, but part of your driving force, intrinsic.

I understand. A commitment and passion to sculpt, that I do possess; to the degree that you would define those qualities associated with one who is a "sculptor" I don't know, but I sure don't care. For me, sculpting is an expression and source of energy. It's not a weekend hobby for me. It's an outlet and an inlet I use to obtain sense of accomplishment and control. I use it to make sense and to find sense. It's a process as I am a process.
But, to avoid being preceived as being reductive, or wishy washy, names and labels are helpful and unavoidable, but sure are more helpful to receive when they are clearly defined and allowed for room to grow. :)

It's easier to couch one's bias inside a name rather than communicate all the bits of info associated with that name. It seems that sometimes, names or labels are used by a person to set a boundary(s). Perhaps to set another person apart from someone else or something else, for good and/or bad; maybe for protection, maybe for personal gain, maybe for limiting other possible knowledge, maybe for other reasons. In my personal life, I am seeking to pursue the possible and options beyond limit setting perceptions. Especially on an online forum such as this, language and how it is communicated sometimes makes my pursuit difficult. Thank you for clarifying who your question was directed to.

Do you have a website or pictures of your work posted somewhere? I checked your profile and didn't see anything. I'm interested in seeing what you have created. Thanks for sharing!

[grommet]

Do you have a website or pictures of your work posted somewhere? I checked your profile and didn't see anything. I'm interested in seeing what you have created. Thanks for sharing!

I can't divulge that info or my cover as a secret agent will be blown.:rolleyes: I sent you a message with locator info.

[travelbud838]

I create my art because I love it first, not for the $, although it is nice. I haven a full time job, but would love to work at this game full time. I know with the pieces I create it could be done.

I'm still an "amateur" and consider my stone pieces to be slightly crude in their completed state. HOWEVER, the thing I do have (if I might brag a little) is a creative flare for the unusual, unique, original pieces most collectors have NEVER seen. I am able to overide the imperfections with the "ah" factor in those whom collect my work. There is little I can't imagine and little I won't create. I take risks all the time. I often sit and let figures and themes bounce around inside my mind for hours, pen, papper in hand. When one makes me jump from my seat, it usually is sitting in a stone formation a few days later.

I have little influence other then my own mind and in reality I want to keep it this way. I like the concept of reinventing the wheel when it comes to my creative part of this work.

I only market my work at local art shows, but have already gathered a nice batch of faithful collectors and offers to show my work at a few small galleries.

I would describe my work as having a slight Native influence or look to it, but far from being traditional. I'm not Native and certainly do not market my work that way, but it does have that "style" to it. In fact, many collectors refer to it as "Native-Style" which is the legal way for non Natives to promote such styles of work. I choose not to. I am asked at every show, if I am Native or part Native given the style of my work and the amazing thing is, this was never my intention. I am always honest in stating I am not Native, but many collectors see an influence there, that I first never knew existed.

So how does this all tie in "making a living" Well, two things have to happen before I quit my day job. The "crude" factor in my work needs to be eliminated and needs to match my creativity. AND, I need to be able to produce my work at a greater pace. Once this is achieved, I believe the sky will be the limit for income potential. I base this, again, on wherever I show my art, it sells and sells fast. It is not at all uncommon for me to go to a medium sized venue with 15-20 stone pieces and come home with nothing left.

Last year I claimed $12,000 on my tax return from vending sales, this after all my deductions. I worked on my art about 10 hours per week, plus time to go to shows. Multiply that times 4 and you get the picture. Perfect my craft and the prices I get will be much higher. This is where I hope to go.

[Dustin Faddis]

thanks for the clearly stated and detailed response Travelbud. I hope you find continued success and fulfillment of your creative ambitions!

cheers!

[desertrock]

The best way to get a gallery gig is to walk in and talk to the gallery director.
Have samples of your work, prices, certificates, if you offer them, and be ready to put your work in the gallery right then. That has worked for me when the fit was right everytime. In a situation like that, credentials mean squat. The quality and impresssion of the work is the most important factor, bar none.....Have all your ducks in a row and be ready to sign an agreement. Having a good picture book is helpful, as is having your own consignment agreement. Bottom line, If your work fits- your in right then. If it doesn't fit go to another gallery. Most importantly, have a substantial amount of completed work ready to go in the gallery!
If it doesn't feel right don't commit. If it feels right commit and keep an eagle eye on the gallery to see that they honor your agreement for the first few weeks. Vigilance to their trustworthiness is important and will build a good relationship. Be ready to offer and change out works if sales are slow. That's a tough one though, right now, given the state of the economy. Pull your work if you think they aren't competent or motivated to sell it. I have pulled out of twice as many galleries as I am in, just because things weren't feeling right or playing out as they should. (I've driven 400 miles after only 2 weeks to pull works becuase the gallery didn't post the work on the website or promote it the way they promised.) Each decision to bail proved valid over time. No hard/fast rules here. Galleries can be as flakey as any other secular business.
Go to artbusiness.com and read the articles by Alan Bamberger. Eye opening and flagrantly disillusioning, but worth every word....

Mark

[Tired Iron]

Whew! Just read all five pages of this thread in one sitting! WOW! What I myself noticed is that Evaldart TRIED to convey (and no one seemed to get it) was that making a "bench" is a boring , been there done that, bill paying composition. What he would RATHER spend his time doing is in fact that "Jump out of your seat and create" feeling that travelbud mentioned. I am amazed that with all the "users" here (I am referring to the high you get when you are truly CREATING) that not one caught on to what he (Evaldart) was trying to say. I am also surprised that Matt couldn't get his point across, this must surely be a first for you, Matt.

P.S. Nice bench , Matt

Dustin , welcome aboard!

[jOe~]

I am also surprised that Matt couldn't get his point across, this must surely be a first for you, Matt. Naw. I think folks actually don't get most of what says. He is just not a pit bull about it. Its your loss if you don't read carefully.

[evaldart]

Well Wayne, I DO believe that Resolution and Confusion trod together on the same path...and if I'm walking between the two, I'll talk to whichever one seems to listening at the time.:D

And you're right. All creative efforts were not created equal. Some you can sleepwalk through, some tickle your fancy, some give a thrill and some make it to Art. (but I can say that I do manage to avoid the boring ones anymore).

[Duck]

he’s just screwin with your heads:rolleyes:
after bending all those curly cues, he added some linear bone yard stuff to it and it just turned out looking like a “bench”

what's so wrong with an implied function when creating art?


250 elbeeze ea.

[grommet]

cuz then people park their keisters on it & wipe boogers on it because it's just a bench. - course they do that to "sculpture" too so I dunno, perhaps it represents a malleability I don't feel, personally.

[Tired Iron]

Naw, E wouldn't screw with our heads. I think he is to sincere for that. Nice chairs Duck, I'll bet one of the implied "functions" of these is that they are theft proof. Nobody can "steel" them from you.

Dustin, if what you conjour up sells , then pursue that passion. I am not making a"living" just yet but it does make a nice contribution to our lifestyle. Also life itself is in the way of fully pursuing my passion. Homeschooling two kids and all the running around we do in offering choir practice, piano/violin lessons , and the list goes on and on....I hope to devote more time to "art" each year and eventually make enough to spend six months a year in beautiful, sunny Sarasota , Florida!!!

I have no art traing whatsoever (unless you count 20+ years of hairdressing) and yet my stuff sells and I have people coming to me for "art" and "functional art". Life is great! Winter stinks!

[grommet]

Whew! Just read all five pages of this thread in one sitting! WOW! What I myself noticed is that Evaldart TRIED to convey (and no one seemed to get it) was that making a "bench" is a boring , been there done that, bill paying composition. What he would RATHER spend his time doing is in fact that "Jump out of your seat and create" feeling that travelbud mentioned. I am amazed that with all the "users" here (I am referring to the high you get when you are truly CREATING) that not one caught on to what he (Evaldart) was trying to say. I am also surprised that Matt couldn't get his point across, this must surely be a first for you, Matt.

P.S. Nice bench , Matt

Dustin , welcome aboard!

you know, I'm pretty sure everyone gets that part about him. I think people were also saying "but it's a really nice bench" Which has nothing to do with the maker and everything to do with the coveting of output by us puny-muscled geeks.

[Tired Iron]

"you know, I'm pretty sure everyone gets that part about him. I think people were also saying "but it's a really nice bench" Which has nothing to do with the maker and everything to do with the coveting of output by us puny-muscled geeks." Grommet
__________________

Yeah, well no one let on that they knew! Besides...I've seen one picture of you with one of your pieces somewhere on this forum and I"d say your physique didn't look like it was puny in the muscle department:) and besides that...don't say "we" when referring to said puny muscles unless you have a mouse in your pocket! Matt, you're still my superhero:D

[grommet]

I just didn't want to come right out & confess that I could kick your fanny on the off chance that you're bigger than me, or can run fast or, i don't have my superhero steel-toed boots on or...:rolleyes: