Is figurative Sculpture Conceptually dead?

[JHoughton]

Just curious what people thought about this question. I believe I have seen soooo many examples of poorly executed and unreasoned figurative works that I am curious to see what people think about it as a whole. Who if anyone shines above the crowd? Is it dead like many shortsighted individuals feel about the painting field?

[fritchie]

Jarrod - I have to say "yes and no" - of course! I agree with you that there is a lot of poor or thoughtless or simply commercial figurative sculpture around. Heaven forbid I should criticize “Western” or “wildlife” art, but most of that is mainly commercial.

Certainly quality is high in general, and one really shouldn’t criticize what others do just because it isn’t what the criticizer does. However, these pieces and these artists in effect reject the whole notion of art criticism and the world of art museums. Hope I don’t set off a firestorm, but replies will be interesting. I, for one, am openminded about generally all art, and I do like Western pieces, but the whole field and the way of thinking is very different.

I do hope my work is conceptual and thoughtful. About quality, I have to leave that to others.

[redrajah]

figurative art dead? absolutely not. check out the works of paolo borghi, (http://www.detweepauwen.nl/sculptures/pictures/pborghi_geometrie_gr.jpg) or ron mueck, (http://www.universes-in-universe.de/car/venezia/bien49/plat1/e-mueck.htm) or marc quinn, (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/1407101.stm) or antony gormley, (http://www.antonygormley.com/) or janet mullarney (http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/ro/artpage/janet/htm/work09.htm) ... it is in fact a very exciting time to be a figurative sculptor.

[JHoughton]

So far this is hopeful. Personaly I think their is much irony to be exploited in the "western" works. I have thought about that a lot in my bronze work.

[kittykat]

im actually like a little kitten who has no elite input into
figurative sculpture but those shortsighted about painting
could be shortsighted about figurative sculpture, i saw
some nice stuff as you say, on the web by someone called
dora natella, bronze sculptures, maybe you would not
call it nice stuff, why do you feel downhearted about the
lack of interesting figurative sculpture, sorry to sound
psycho crap but are you really let down by the figurative
sculpture or is it something else, maybe something really
trivial as those smilies really get to me sometimes,

i do have an 'idea' for my course im undertaking in a
beginners workshop of sculpture, and im entitling it
"im a little teacup", but i wont go more into it, so you may
be opened for enlightenment.

signing off la di da da

[Randy]

Got a chance to visit the new Modern Art Museum of Fort Worth this past weekend. The Richard Serra is stunning out front -- about 70 feet tall, six or eight three inch thick steel plates, maybe 20 tons each. It had a bad case of exzema, however. The steel got eaten up by sea-salt on the trip over. Isn't that somewhat figurative?

Also, works indoors by Michelangelo Pistoletto and someone who made a miniature old woman, sitting on a chair. Both were strong technically and conceptually. (Didn't care much for the old lady, myself, but she was getting good scrutiny by the crowds.) What about Charles Ray? Kiki Smith?

http://www.themodern.org/

Ciao,
Randy

[fritchie]

Randy - Pistoletto is not in their index byartist's name, and figurative as a search term came up completely negative. Is that bias?

[Randy]

You are too fast for me. I have emailed the Museum director about the Pistoletto when I couldn't find it online either.

I will report in as soon as I hear from him.

[Randy]

Here is a semi-dubious image of the piece I saw in Fort Worth, from somewhere in Italy.

This is cool with the architectural interior, but it was very cool in Ft Worth, too with the reflecting pool in the reflection of the mirror.

[Randy]

Dear Mr. Jewart:

We're in the process of adding all of the new acquisitions to our website. Please keep checking. The Pistoletto should be there soon.

Susan Colegrove
Administrative Assistant
Modern Art Museum of Fort Worth
3200 Darnell Street
Fort Worth, TX 76107
817-738-9215 x116
scolegro@themodern.org

[JHoughton]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kittykat
[B]im actually like a little kitten who has no elite input into
figurative sculpture but those shortsighted about painting
could be shortsighted about figurative sculpture, i saw
some nice stuff as you say, on the web by someone called
dora natella, bronze sculptures, maybe you would not
call it nice stuff, why do you feel downhearted about the
lack of interesting figurative sculpture.

Honestly I think nice stuff if said with a tinge of sarcasm would be appropriate. This is stuff Natella has done on her site is really nicely exicuted, but you have to admit doesn't do anything to expand the boundry of figurative sculpture as we know it. Unfortunately I have seen so many beginning classes make this stuff that it just plain bores the crap out me. It is what it is and shows well learned techinques but where does it go to get out of the rut? I get downhearted in seeing anything that is complacent to be mediocre. Thanks for your post!

[fritchie]

Jarrod - Part of me says I probably should wait overnight before replying to this, but part says I am too busy and the message probably wouldn’t improve a great deal, so here goes. I think what we are looking at here is one of the central dilemmas of American society today - Is diversity or distinction a better choice? Alternatively: Is there a universal scale of quality in a field, or is any viewpoint simply a reflection of bias?

I must say that, in general I come down on the side of distinction and a universal scale of quality, but my eyes have opened by experience to the alternative view, so I don’t oppose it as strongly as I would have earlier.

To get this discussion directly into sculpture, I looked at both the figurative work you say leaves you unmoved, and at the first reference googol gave me to you, your ISC page. I could say that the work you have posted there leaves me unmoved also, but where would that get us? (Actually, I see some interesting elements in it, but the 2-D imagery fails to convey very much.)

In effect, you are working in an infinite design space of preconfigured elements, and figurative sculptors are working in a limited design space of nearly infinite form. Neither is easy and both can be rewarding. It’s sort of like whether a musical composer chooses color like Bach or structure like Beethoven. (And may any real musicians pardon my ignorance of nuance. I simply mean to say that the world is richer for both, and that’s what counts in the end.)

[redrajah]

as a figurative sculptor i can say that jarrod's frustrations are much like my own. it is never enough to simply make a well crafted representation of the human form, no matter our love for it. our gift is one of communication and there is always so much to say, consciously or otherwise. great work, whether it is figurative or not speaks for it's time and place, it lends new insights into old mysteries, captures a time's collective conscience and opens the doors of discovery. the greeks did love the human form they said it so well in the sculpture they made. the renaissance man fancied himself as the absolute epicenter of the universe and michelangelo said it succinctly in his david, there stands man in all his beauty, in all his ugliness. the agony of human pathos was never better expressed than by rodin and it is painfully obvious in every thumbstroke. good craft, anatomy and techniques can never be more than points of departure. from there we have to give of ourselves and of what we think and of how we feel, we have to take risks, to push further than we think possible and to fail mightily, but to be so turned on and so open to what drives us that it doesn't matter.

[JHoughton]

I also should think more about what I am about to write, but as my work sometimes shows If I wait it will not get done;)
Fritchie, you have made a great point about bais. I'm not sure what to do with mine? I like to think I am an open and free minded artist person, but anytime I see such heavily used and abused artworks not to metion historically loaded (bronze figures included) up comes old mister bias! It is almost always a matter of did the artist consider any of the modes of thinking from the 1960 on, or are they happy to forever make Giacomette's or Rodan's?
As far as my work goes I am sure many, many people could easily live without it and would be happy doing so. Yet, when that one person takes the time to figure out what have I done and why, this is when the lines of communication are opened. Dicsussion and questions make an artist grow so fast its amazing. As with the beginning thread this was always my intention to make those who want to grow to have the opertunity. Thanks for your reply!

[JHoughton]

Always a persistant problem with me when technique and craftsmanship gets in the way or becomes a refuge from the initial concept. I often have to run from the machines and tools to remind myself what my work was to communicate.

[fritchie]

I’m starting two new threads in response to the comments posted in this thread yesterday by redrajah and Jarrod, in order to keep the original thread from growing too long, and to provide branches for others who may choose one or another of their points for further comment.:p

[Toby]

Figurative sculpture conceptually dead?
No, I believe that figurative sculpture is unfashionable. One reason for this may be the fact that it is so "accessible". Anyone can look at the David and think wow, that looks just like a person, and then some. If aforementioned layman looks at another figurative sculpture created by someone with less skill or technique he may think hmm, that looks a bit like a person. To launch into a format which holds one's work up to comparison with the work of masters over the centuries requires some serious grit, maybe talent too.
I think that figurative sculpture is a format, not a concept: a vehicle of expression. In many ways I feel that the way is clear for a neo-renaissance, and that the capacity of figurative, even representational sculpture as a whole has never been plumbed to its depths.
In figurative sculpture lies the history of the golem, the totem, the fetish, the Frankensteins monster, the protective figurehead, the miraculous virgins. The imbuing of persona and personality into an inanimate object. Pass me the laudanum Igor.

Small pond redraj

[Randy]

Just a reminder: The new April issue of Sculpture Magazine is devoted to the Figure. Work by Elizabeth Catlett, Magdelena Abakanowicz, Mimmo Paladino, Antony Gormley and more. Art in America features articles and ads for many artists using the figure including Manuel Neri and others.

What about the cross-over from sculpture to performance and video which uses "real" figural presentation? This area is surely not considered out-moded, and grows out of the classical figurative tradition.

<www.sculpture.org> for images and articles from Sculpture, and to subscribe on-line so you're not missing out!

[fritchie]

Randy - I have to say I don't think video and performance art count as figurative sculpture. It's interesting that essentially any new art form which people can’t classify gets put into “sculpture”.

I kind of like that, as it says in a way that sculpture is the most open of all visual art fields, but to say these two art forms are part of figurative sculpture comes close to saying that photography of the figure also is a form of figurative sculpture. OK, so photography commonly is two dimensional, but so is video. Performance probably is closer to theater, ballet, mime, and other theatrical arts. The emphasis typically is on movement and possibly sound, and not specifically on form, as with sculpture.

OK, again, I’m getting myself into trouble if you add mobiles in sculpture as Calder did. I guess any three D work which includes the figure can be considered an extension of figurative sculpture, but art which includes motion asa main factor is to sculpture as a solo music piece is to a symphony. The focus is much larger but not so sharp.

[redrajah]

cheers toby, small pond indeed. delighted with your words.

[Randy]

Not sure how it can be explored readily, but Magdelena showed a video at her keynote address during the Pittsburgh ISC conference that indicates an amazingly tight connection between her sculptural practice and the dance performance she choreographed with Japanese noh dancers. I am sure there are additional examples.

Have you checked out April's Art in America? An article about Marina Abramovic features her recent performance in NY. A very "sculptural" presentation.

The line here seems an "objectification" of the body--not similar to theater at all.

Randy

[fritchie]

Randy - I’m going to pick up on your comment, “The line here seems an "objectification" of the body--not similar to theater at all”, and ramble on a bit in a conversation with myself as I did in response to your earlier suggestion comparing performance, etc., with figurative sculpture.

I have to admit I am mystified by the term “objectification of the body” in opposition to what is present in theater. Most commonly, objectification might be taken as sexual in nature, but it also might mean objectification as power, subjugation, humor, ridicule, or any number of other concepts. Certainly, the figure in theater often is used in these ways.

I have to admit that in most of my earliest works, including all five of the ones in Portfolio, I conceived them as demonstrations that the human form could express abstract concepts such as rhythm, pace, spatial organizational and so on just as well as nonrepresentational sculpture. To me, they primarily were abstract compositions clothed in human form.

In fact, I strove to isolate each figure from social context exactly to reduce the “humanity” of each one, to emphasize the factors above. In my thought process over this time, I found it almost impossible to remove the figure from its everyday context, to prevent viewers, so to speak, from questioning just what the figure was about as a person. It didn’t take long to realize (in my view) that I was overcomposing each piece in terms of rhythm, pace, and so on - that I was choosing somewhat artificial poses for the figures, and that real persons would be more casual in movement. I relaxed the compositional constraints and deliberately chose slightly more awkward moments.

I won’t go on more about my personal odyssey here, but hope these thoughts will give you a framework to say more about just where you are coming from in this line of reasoning.:rolleyes:

[Victoria]

Enjoyed reading everyone's comments on figurative sculpture and is it dead?
I attended a drawing class recently. Some submission requests call for drawings of the proposed sculpture. I don't draw very well so I took the class. The teacher just happened to be a figurative artist (painter) and very good.
Based on this teacher's repetitive theme of advice. "Gesture is everything!" I don't think most Greek sculpture was very exciting. It appears stiff and dead to me. In that case speaking literally, figurative sculpture was truly dead.
I am concentrating these days on trying to capture gesture with a more conscious effort than before. I think my teacher is correct. Provided gesture is captured, figurative sculpture will never be dead.
:D

[redrajah]

hello victoria,
perhaps with a bit of time and practice you will come to discover that there is gesture everywhere, even in the "stiff and dead"...

meanwhile i've posted a few photos of greek sculpture that are more obviously gestural, here (http://www.dagstani.net/greeks/) . good luck with the drawing.

[fritchie]

Victoria -

I, too, heard the term ?gesture?in all my introductory sculpture classes. Used this way, ?gesture? means the overall sculptural concept or design, with its essential lines of flow and points of focus. Beginning figurative students often get lost in detail and forget the overall meaning of the piece, and this emphasis reminds them to keep the overall purpose in mind.

When you say about Greek work, ?I don't think most Greek sculpture was very exciting. It appears stiff and dead to me?, I suspect you either are thinking of very early, Archaic Greek art, or you are referring to the simplicity or economy of design of Classical Greek art.

Contemporary sculptors Osamu Noguchi and Richard Serra have used minimalist design somewhat similar to that of Classical Greek art today, but in nonrepresentational sculpture. I post figures below of two Greek bronzes, Zeus/Poseidon and Aphrodite, approximately from the Classical Period, and also a Roman copy of a Classical Greek marble, Doryphoros.

The male with outstretched arms is considered to have held a lightning bolt in his right hand if he is Zeus, or a trident if he is Poseidon. Aphrodite originally probably held a ribbon or garland of flowers in her hands, passing behind her head, preparing to tie the object in her hair. Doryphoros, ?spearbearer?, is thought to have held a spear in his left hand, loosely resting on the ground and on his shoulder. All of these figures show clean, well-conceived gestures. One other thing that may confuse you about Greek sculpture is that marbles often are incomplete, having lost limbs and even the head through accident over the ages. This would confuse the gesture.

[benny]

An example of 'dead' figurative art -
a sarcophagus! Maybe you mean rather boring lifeless armless statuettes or portraits of dolphins and or pregnant women etc... yes? Conceptually, what kind of dead do you think the human figure has become in culture just now? Dead as in the cold hard steel of a door nail? Or just dead boring? Please clarify any prejudice you may have against figurative work. Be scathing if you need to..I won't take it personally. Thanks.
When culture has been totally deconstructed perhaps we might see them piling real bodies into bottomless pits and calling it art....
Clear as Mud.

Benny

[sculptorsam]

Victoria- Two thoughts about the "deadness" (lifelessness?) of Greek sculpture:

One, material and technique have an incredible bearing on the appearance of a work. In the images above, notice the bronze work has a less compact body, with arms outstretched and legs spread. Notice the marble sculpture on the right which is more compact and column-like. Because of the tensile strength of bronze, it opens the sculptor up to more superficial "expressiveness" because there is less chance of the arm just shearing right off under its own weight which it may in the marble. Perhaps the limitations of marble actually led the sculpture to a more delicate, subtle expression. That would be a more Eastern way of thought.

Second, it is difficult to compare drawing to sculpture. From your teacher's standpoint, you've got a piece of paper in front of you with no physical limitations on the positions the body can be contorted. "Expressiveness" tends to be equated with expansiveness, i.e. the busier it is, the more lively it is. Expression can be confused with melodrama.

Likewise, now that any material is open to being used for sculpture, the result may be drastically different than what the Greeks accomplished in marble. Works in steel can actually attain the expansiveness of the line on paper. Likewise, many steel sculptors confuse expansiveness with expression.

Just some thoughts.

Sam

[redrajah]

Originally posted by benny

When culture has been totally deconstructed perhaps we might see them piling real bodies into bottomless pits and calling it art....
Clear as Mud.

Benny

until then we'll just keep calling it war...

Clear as Mud.

[Araich]

Is the theatrical nature of Ron Muecks work http://www.artmolds.com/ali/halloffame/ron_muek.htm anything different to the inner life depicted by Rodin?

I don't believe figurative sculpture is dead, but what it has left to say, can only well be said in the private, personal act of the individual viewer and the work.

[fritchie]

Thanks for this link to Ron Muecks’ work. Saatchi art has been much in the news over the last couple of years, but I had missed this. Except for presenting nudes (clearly a strong variance), this work is in the vein of Duane Hanson. Here’s a pointer to Hanson’s work: http://museum.oglethorpe.edu/Hanson.htm

Jeff Koons also has made some polyester figures cast from life and given natural color.

I believe it is implicit in your comment that sculpture requires interpretation by the viewer. In fact, one could say with a degree of legitimacy that sculpture consists of a spatial communion between artist and viewer. In a sense, a sculpture is different for each viewer, and even different for the same viewer over time. Remember the Zen assertion “One can’t step into the same river once.”

In the spirit of artist - viewer exclusivity, I’m not sure what you mean by “Is the theatrical nature of Ron Muecks work ....... anything different to the inner life depicted by Rodin?” I find Rodin theatrical to a somewhat excessive degree, but admire him greatly for restoring vitality to sculpture more or less not seen since Michelangelo.

I dislike making remarks on works or artists I have not seen in person, but will go so far as to say, with regard to the pieces in your link, that they appear to me dead, in the sense that they seem to depict the individuals as objects rather than as persons with inner spirit. Given that these figures or figure fragments are lifesize and therefore would assume personlike quality when encountered, my reaction to seeing them in person cannot be predicted.

[sculptorsam]

Without having actually seen Mueck's work in person either, I would say his work done in a radically different scale than "real" life is much stronger than that which is "life-size." For instance, the large head which I believe is a coulple feet across, can take on the effect of an absurdist object, forcing the viewer to confront the disconnect between scale and perception. Work done perfectly in scale with the figure comes off like a waxwork reproduction. Perhaps this points to a more general observation about figurative sculpture.

Sam

[Araich]

Originally posted by fritchie
with regard to the pieces in your link, that they appear to me dead, in the sense that they seem to depict the individuals as objects rather than as persons with inner spirit. Given that these figures or figure fragments are lifesize and therefore would assume personlike quality when encountered, my reaction to seeing them in person cannot be predicted.

That's an interesting view. Funnily enough close to my own view until seeing his show here in Sydney this year. I found the work to be all about the inner life of the figures - which came across very strongely.
They ranged from say 1/10 to 10/1 scale, with none close enough to confuse with an actual person - but so real as to confuse in other ways.

My comment/question re Rodin was somewhat flipant. My apologies. I was actually putting the boot in, as I'm generally suspicious of the overt drama (read device) depicted by Rodin.

http://www.artwise.com.au/images/davidpunch.gif

And as for David - enough said LMAO!

[redrajah]

as far as i can see this guy is a modern master. notice the scale in this photo.

[fritchie]

No apology is needed re Rodin. I agree that he is overly theatrical, but I do find him very strong with individual figures. I’m curious about your earlier comment (RH) “I don't believe figurative sculpture is dead, but what it has left to say, can only well be said in the private, personal act of the individual viewer and the work.” Are you saying that figurative sculpture plays the role of a book, which holds a one-on-one relationship between author and reader, in contrast with theater or cinema, where the work is broadcast on the waves, so to speak? In other words, that there is no public role for figurative sculpture?

[Araich]

Originally posted by fritchie
In other words, that there is no public role for figurative sculpture?

Ough oh... http://www.artwise.com.au/images/explode.gif I nearly didn't enter this discussion!

That's not what I meant, though I can see your rational. I do think there is a public role for figurative sculpture, as there is for all art.

What I sheepishly tried to say is this: The shock (both of the new and of recognition) in figurative sculpture is largely explored, used and abused. If it can confront and confound, it does so on a more personal level, as the viewer will already likely have a broad memory of figurative sculpture for reference.
This is naturally true for all sculpture, but to a lesser extent in the abstract.

I don't see this as a bad thing, and don't believe it to diminish the figurative.

Ever more real depiction, ever more dramatic and polemic content, ever more florid guesture, ever greater scale. Enough!


Just my off hand thoughts.

[fritchie]

“The shock (both of the new and of recognition) in figurative sculpture is largely explored, used and abused. If it can confront and confound, it does so on a more personal level, as the viewer will already likely have a broad memory of figurative sculpture for reference. This is naturally true for all sculpture, but to a lesser extent in the abstract.” - RH

Thanks for this elaboration of your ideas. (And I appreciate the humor in the last line of your post!) That post gve me a lot of thought last night and I tried to recall the largest public commissions in the U. S. over the alst couple of decades.

At least two of the biggest are in Washington - the Vietnam Memorial and the FDR (President Franklin Roosevelt) Memorial. Both of these combine abstract and figurative elements, though the former was abstract at first, until the public at large found its voice and figurative elements were added. So much for the guidance of “art experts” in setting the agenda of public art. [In truth, I like nonrepresentational sculpture every bit as much as figurative, but in a different way. I greatly admired Maya Lin’s design for the Vietnam Memorial from the beginning, and she has been vindicated over time by the public’s genuine love for it today.]

Figurative sculptors have a habit of complaining that the public doesn’t receive this type of art as vigorously as it did a century or millennium or couple of millennia ago. Clearly, as this is my preferred mode, I ask similar questions, why? I decided as I worked over the first few years, that my work was relatively personal, and required personal, gentle spaces. As this is restrictive, I have tried to find ways of generating work more suitable for larger space. I think I am succeeding, but there are figurative places I clearly don’t want to enter.

It seems to me that the figure today largely is reserved for memorials or for genre work, both of which have become more or less fixed, “dead” in the words of many commentators here. An individual artist, sufficiently endowed, can bring fresh life to these forms, and I admire these people as much as workers in any other sculptural mode. However, these forms are not for me, as a personal choice. I prefer to focus on the figure as individual, possibly abstracted or “depersonalized” to a degree in order to give it wider audience. This concept, the figure as individual, is the basis for my statement elsewhere on this forum, that all of contemporary life is present in the figure, “(feminist, Blackness, .......)”. It really is all there, for an artist with sufficient vision to see it.

[redrajah]

There is nothing more difficult for a truly creative painter than to paint a rose, because before he can do so he has first to forget all the roses that were ever painted.
-Henri Matisse

[substitute "figure" for "rose" and "sculptor" for "painter"]

[jfmenna]

I think the problem most contemporary figurative sculptors(and conceptual artists, as well) encounter is the inability to extend their efforts beyond being merely literal illustrations of some idea or theme. The plastic arts, whether figurative or otherwise, depend on deeper, more musical means to communicate their intent. Most American figurative sculptors and painters have had little or no contact with real academic training and instead relied on such psuedo-academic resources such as the works of Robert Beverly Hale, the pedantic criticisms of Thomas Wolfe, or schools such as the New York Academy. Anatomy and all the other elementary art school staples have their place, but their importance and proper use have been corrupted by these self important pedants claiming to hold the keys to the "lost secrects of the old masters." It doesn't matter if their subjects are figures or not, sculptors should focus on trying to make good SCULPTURE. As long as "figurative" sculptors forget this, the future of figurative sculture will never shine as brightly as its' past.

[Victoria]

Re-reading through this topic. More thoughts come to mind. "Gesture is everything" in the words of my drawing teacher Michael McGuire at the Valdez Art center here in Santa Fe. If you don't capture gesture in the first stroke of the pencil. Start a new page. I think why so much figurative art appears dead (today and yesterday) is that gesture is completely absent and one is left staring at a frigid work. No lyrics. No musical inclination whatsoever and yes, those works are completely dead. The competition's not all that big after all. Remember there are thousands of accountants in this world but only a few of them are brilliant. The same is true of artists. Victoria Varle www.nice-touch.com

[Victoria]

Hello RedRajah, You wrote; hello victoria,
perhaps with a bit of time and practice you will come to discover that there is gesture everywhere, even in the "stiff and dead"...

Is this why the war in Ireland has raged on for so many centuries LOL. How condescending of you. Perhaps when I turn 63 in September I will have time to practice?? Yes there is gesture everywhere even in a sterile stick figure. I was referring to lyrical gesture, I guess. One can capture gesture with one stroke of the pencil (or sculpture, a "mere" torso. However flail the arms and legs all you like in an attempt to capture gesture but if that central first stroke fails, gesture has not been captured.

I don't think it matters how forgiving material is today or how inflexible marble proved to be for old "masters." Remove the arms, legs and head from most and tell me what "gesture" was captured. Really captured.

[CloudDreamer]

Hey from Texas! About figurative sculpture...there are all kinds of figurework to consider. To me, classical is not reaching a lot of us in America because we are soo UnEuropean. In our unique country which has been influenced by a diverse mix of cultures and the Native Americans we displaced, things are different- attitudes are different. I used to LOVE classical figurative art until I studied under Paul Kittelson(UH) for a few years. Always that WORD-CONCEPTUAL!! Trying to take an old thought and bring it to our generation, on our terms. Sounds so simple, but for some of us it is something to work towards...a state of awareness. No I do not think figurative art is dead conceptually. My personal favorite is a Polish artist, Magdalena Abakanowich who I first came to know of from the Sculpture Magazine. I think we love the figure because it is who we are. It is our history, our future. With life experiences, age, and a true freedom of expression,which is actually a freedom from trying to impress our teachers or peers- we may be able to tap into some invisible current of energy that takes us a step further in an abstraction of figure & thought. Remain open.

[slintfan]

Ok. I think what I want to say is this: Art that works is progressive. Strictly formal figurative art, that pays no attention to context or conceptual dialogue is regressive--historically speaking. Now, if I made a bronze scupture of a dog that was representational in every way, would that not be just as simple (negatively speaking) as a human figure in the same vain? It comes down to artists ability to have something to say besides, "this is what a human body looks like". Even with Kiki Smith, her work is hyper representational, and clinical, but it is pushed to a level where she is talking about the disconnection between the temporal body itself and a sense of the ethereal. Gormley is most interesting to me when he deals with implication of the human body. The negative cavities inside his concrete and lead castings where there are holes for finger tips and mouths. He is figurative, but he is talking about the space inside as opposed to the space around the human body. I can see classical post-modern figurative references as progressive because they can be used to appropriate historical elements of the genre. Push it somewhere. Say something. ?

[aaron p. hussey]

jarrod,

It seems you have started something. I am interested in the figure and have been doing public pieces, as well as my personal studio work, and I often think about the craft or executed level of my work. Some of these commissions are not the most creative, thought provoking things I have done, because limitations are set by the clients. This is the bread and butter for my studio to continue and hopefully grow. I think I craft a solid representaion that captures the personality and that is what give me satisfaction with no intension of comparing myself to the likes of the old masters.

[fritchie]

Welcome jmenna - I see from your profile and website that you work with (among others) Johnson Atelier, near the ISC’s Figuratively Speaking conference this summer, and I like the entry page in your website. If I may, I’d like to ask you to comment on your experience with 3D modeling, especially figurative, in the new thread on “Sculpture and Computers”. (http://sculpture.net/community/showthread.php?s=&postid=965#post965) Thanks,

[Victoria]

I am in a frantic frame of mind. I have entered the 9/11 memorial sculpture competition. What a project that is going to be for somebody. I always leave everything until the last minute. Apparently that is when my best work is done. Wish the frantic frame of mind would improve though.
Does anyone else in this group get beside themselves with angst prior to submissions or even whilst dreaming up a creation with a deadline to beat?
I've been called a perfectionist by many. I don't think it is a compliment really as someone once said "perfectionists take great pains and give them to everyone else." ha ha ha.

[fritchie]

slintfan, Brad - Your post is poetic and requires a poetic answer. Thomas Jefferson in our own Declaration of Independence posed a paradox “We hold these truths to be self evident - That all men (read persons) are created equal .....”. Clearly his words are false on the surface, as people vary mightily in bodily capacity and in access to the world’s means.

However, we are created equal in spirit and we should have equal call on the world’s spiritual source. Each of us need watch synoptically both the stars and our own feet. As sculptors, our hands deserve a glance as well.


It is the duty of each person to make best use of himself or herself and, yes, this means staying awake and meaning what we do.

Please continue.

[Victoria]

Hello Fritchie, You wrote;
However, we are created equal in spirit and we should have equal call on the world’s spiritual source.

I don't think you are right. I know some really mean spirited people while others appear to be totally pure. Anyhow I grow rather impatient with reminders that one must make allowances for others or that we should embrace each other, albeit spiritually, as equals. Some spirits are always "more equal" than others.

I think all we can do is hope the spirit we each inherited will be well received by the world at large and even appreciated through the art we each project, the rest? they may even get to capture the gesture of my middle finger from time to time etc.. Cheers.

[CloudDreamer]

Hello Victoria, and others; I think Fritchie was talking about tapping into a spiritual source. This talk and direction of thought is getting pretty esoteric...I have so many thoughts on this, that it is hard to stay simple and concise. Remember that this was supposed to be related to figurative art? There comes a time in the creation of any art work, when the artist goes off into a zone of thought and energy/ and the piece can begin to take on a life of its own...totally diff. from what was initially planned. For me personally, I believe in the Jungian philosophy of the evolution of the mind and the possibility that Memories come to us from the past. This belief came about NOT through reading a book, but many, from searching throughout my lifetime to understand what my more bizarre dreams meant..how could thoughts come to my mind in the Dreamtime, when as a sheltered teen, I had never read or viewed any of these symbols(or subject matter). My artwork in scrap metal almost always has an ancient feeling to it. Sometimes I add bones. Our life experiences give the depth to our work, a place to go when seeking answers..an intuitive place. This is not easy to explain/ but learning to meditate and close out all sounds of the materisl world is a good place to start.

[KFleischman]

I am still very interested in expressing my view of life through the use of the human figure. I have never felt the human figure is dead as a source of inspiration. I do agree with the notion that sculptors should learn rules of portraying the human body before breaking the rules by abstraction. The possibilities of the human experience are endless!

[fritchie]

From Victoria - Hello Fritchie, You wrote;
However, we are created equal in spirit and we should have equal call on the world’s spiritual source.

I don't think you are right. I know some ...

I’m dealing with Thomas Jefferson here, who also was being poetic when he wrote the words above. I’m just trying to make sense of the disconnect between those words and the way the world really seems.

One of the things I was trying to say in that post (the essence of poetry being its content of symbolism and multiple layers of meaning) is that things are very unequal in the existing world, and we all should try to make the best of it - to do our honest best in whatever we do.

[fritchie]

Kfleischman just posted I am still very interested in expressing my view of life through the use of the human figure. I have never felt the human figure is dead as a source ...

I completely agree. I use the human figure exclusively, and in a realistic, generally nude form. The figure is a subtle means of expressing things, and most people look past the content, saying something like “OK, just another figure.” Not so, if the artist is good.

[Victoria]

Thank you Fritchie and CloudDreamer,
I know we are supposed to be discussing the topic, but it is nice to get to know each of you by drawing you out beyond the topic.

CloudDreamer wrote; This belief came about NOT through reading a book, but many, from searching throughout my lifetime to understand what my more bizarre dreams meant..how could thoughts come to my mind in the Dreamtime, when as a sheltered teen, I had never read or viewed any of these symbols(or subject matter).

In the words of a fellow student at the Art Institute of Chicago (he was a Psychology Professor too) "it comes to us through the airwaives. It is everywhere. We pick it up without even knowing we pick it up. It is auto-suggestion in it's many forms. Next thing we know, it's Gospel. Discard it as soon as you can." And so I did. Victoria

[Victoria]

CloudDreamer wrote;
My artwork in scrap metal almost always has an ancient feeling to it. Sometimes I add bones. Our life experiences give the depth to our work, a place to go when seeking answers..an intuitive place.

Each of us has our own unique DNA to exhibit. Some can truly reach within, pull it out and thrill the audience (like Mozart, Bach, and countless other masters did/do) while others of us really struggle to display the beauty within. We first sort through the pain and suffering, dissapointment and disillusionment, rejection and etc.. Sometimes we spend our whole lives sorting through this rubble and may never display through our art who we each really are. No matter. It's the effort that deserves recognition.

I have always loved to sculpt the human figure. Laboring over its many complexities through the nights. It took a drawing teacher to open a window and let the sunshine in/out by pointing out the magic of gesture. Now I can actually see why some pieces work and others do not. Just thought I would share my excitment.

[fritchie]

Victoria, ClouDreamer, and all - Let me direct you to another thread I started a couple of days ago, “Conceptualization of new work” (http://sculpture.net/community/showthread.php?s=&threadid=370). Keep posting these ideas here if you prefer, but these thoughts are exactly the reason I started the new thread. I wanted to give people a place to say how they got their inspirations, ... A couple of days ago, someone (and I apologize for not checking who) said his inspirations on form (nonrepresentational) came about 5 - 6 a.m. My ideas frequently come in the dark hours also, but also appear spontaneously when I am working with a model.

[CloudDreamer]

Hello Fritchie, and others, This is a very good idea. It will be very interesting to see the feedback...and what an important train of thought for all artists. It's one thing to copy what you see, gestural or not. It is another thing to take it a step further and digest and reprocess, re-interpret. I enjoy this website.Over and out CloudDreamer.

[Toby]

I don't believe figurative sculpture is dead, but what it has left to say, can only well be said in the private, personal act of the individual viewer and the work.


__________________

This provokes thought, but surely it applies to anything labelled as art.
The comments on gesture, stiffness and expression are also interesting. It would seem to be the natural progression of realistic representation. Just as looking at dead people can be boring after a while, so too can looking at rather wooden figurative sculpture. Figurative sculpture is "accessible", most of the folks reading this are people and can relate to human bodies, visual communication hits a wide audience by using a familiar theme. As within each person is the capacity to communicate sensation and experience through body language, so too is the way open to sculptors to communicate raw or subtle emotion through this medium. The punters like it too because they don't need several years of art college to share some of the captured expression.
Logically, figurative sculpture should die around about the same time that we can abandon semiotics. I see this as possible, inasmuch as I can fully communicate with you, dear reader, through this medium of visual symbols.

(I-am-a-comin-redraj!)