Nude Chocolate Christ

[Merlion]

What do you think. Are you comfortable or uncomfortable about this nude chocolate Christ? By the way, the blurring effect of the picture is from source of course.

Catholic Group: Chocolate Christ No Easter Treat (http://1010wins.com/pages/327596.php?contentType=4&contentId=392010)

NEW YORK (AP) -- The Easter season unveiling of a milk chocolate sculpture of Jesus Christ, dubbed "My Sweet Lord'' by its creator, left a sour taste Thursday in the mouths of a Catholic group infuriated by the anatomically correct confection.

"This is one of the worst assaults on Christian sensibilities ever,'' said Bill Donohue, head of the watchdog Catholic League. "It's not just the ugliness of the portrayal, but the timing -- to choose Holy Week is astounding.''

http://imgsrv.1010wins.com/image/wins/UserFiles/Image/jesus300.jpg

The 6-foot sculpture by artist Cosimo Cavallaro was to debut Monday evening, the day after Palm Sunday and just four days before Roman Catholics mark the crucifixion of Jesus Christ on Good Friday.

The final day of the exhibit at the Lab Gallery inside midtown Manhattan's Roger Smith Hotel was planned for Easter Sunday.

"The fact that they chose Holy Week shows this is calculated, and the timing is deliberate,'' said Donohue, whose group represents 350,000 Catholics nationwide.

He called for an economic boycott of the hotel, which he described as "already morally bankrupt.''

The gallery's creative director, Matt Semler, said the Lab and the hotel were overrun with angry telephone calls and e-mails about the exhibit. Although he described Donohue's response as "a Catholic fatwa,'' Semler said the gallery was considering its options amid the criticism.

"We're obviously surprised by the overwhelming response and offense people have taken,'' said Semler, adding that the Holy Week timing was an unfortunate coincidence. "We are certainly in the process of trying to figure out what we're going to do next.''

The artwork was created from more than 200 pounds of milk chocolate, and it features Christ with his arms outstretched as if on an invisible cross. Unlike the typical religious portrayal of Christ, the Cavallaro creation does not include a loincloth.

Cavallaro, who was raised in Canada and Italy, is best known for his quirky work with food as art: Past efforts include repainting a Manhattan hotel room in melted mozzarella, spraying 5 tons of pepper jack cheese on a Wyoming home and festooning a four-poster bed with 312 pounds of processed ham.....

[evaldart]

Yeah, baby! What a treat.

[sculptor]

"You eat it, you bought it"!

[Landseer]

the Lab and the hotel were overrun with angry telephone calls and e-mails about the exhibit.Probably 4 people urging all their friends to phone and email bomb the hotel multiple times.

a Catholic group infuriated by the anatomically correct confection. Yeah well, the same people are disgusted by the filthy dirty sinful nasty body would find fault with anything nude, makes you wonder why they don't just get themselves castrated and save themselves from having to look at their own dirty genitals eh?

This reaction almost makes me want to do some really really nasty sculpture- far worse than Jeff Coons to rile those fools up but good, I could have that figure in chocolate, bent over and spread wide and then I could have a big...

[Funes]

I might dust of one of the designs I though was likely to get me death threats and enter it in an open comp - just to see what reaction I can get.

Rather than choosing to see it as a personal assault on their religion they could see it as a sad comment on the commercialisaion of their festival and the current emphasis on excessive consumption.

If anyone really feels their faith to be threatened by the sculpture ( and you have to admire the skill in the chocolate work ) I'd suggest their faith is so weak that they don't deserve to call it faith.

If you really want to see the willy it's the first image on the artists home page.

[dilida]

Merlion, you asked if we were comfortable or uncomfortable with this, I'd have to say uncomfortable, but not surprised at it at all.

lisa

[evaldart]

It seems it has been one of the roles of the artist to test the waters of human tolerances with challenging work, the ensuing reactions letting everyone know how far we've come or how buried we still are in past nonsenses.
I agree Landseer. Sometimes something makes you want to use your art-powers to provoke.

[Merlion]

This news source, perhaps because it is from the UK, does not self censor the private part of the nude photo.

Sweet Jesus (http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=43503&in_page_id=2)

I notice the artist Cosimo Cavallaro enjoys doing unusual art that grasp attention. They call him an oddball artist. I have no time to dig out his past works. Anybody care to do it?

[EJB]

Does this make chocolate SINFUL? Perhaps I'll pray for a Hershey bar.

[Tlouis]

I think what upsets some people is this figure of jesus is all too human: has exposed genitals. Most christians would prefer to think of jesus in pink and blue and golden fairy tale terms, not as a real man with human needs like themselves: the need to piss and shit and blow his nose and have BO and even--god forbid--as might now have been the case, SEX, dirty, nasty disgusting unforgivable SEX with Mary Magdelene, and, crime of crimes, have had a child with her. In other words I believe most christians, deep down, would really prefer this sugary sweet edible jesus to the real man.

I hope I won't burn in hell for the above. :eek:

Lou

[GlennT]

It seems it has been one of the roles of the artist to test the waters of human tolerances with challenging work, the ensuing reactions letting everyone know how far we've come or how buried we still are in past nonsenses.
I agree Landseer. Sometimes something makes you want to use your art-powers to provoke.

I have no desire to address this specific work, but rather the idea of the artist role or desire to provoke. I was wondering why that is the case. For example, you don't expect to have a baseball player step up to the plate and start ranting about how he hates religion, or the weatherman on the evening news give the audience the finger, or a taxi driver to flash his passengers. But apparently such behavior is acceptable or expected from an artist? Is everyone else but such an artist buried in the past?

GlennT

[Tlouis]

Hi Merlion

I looked up Cavallaro's website. There is a back view of the chocolate jesus.

As for some of the rest of his work, don't look at it on a full stomach. Unless you have a barf bag handy.

Lou :(

[Funes]

I really can't see what's so offensive about this particular piece aside from breaking the tradition of a loin cloth. Bearing in mind the whole point of crucifiction - and he was only one of tens of thousands who were killed that way - was to torture and humiliate in death then I wouldn't have thought it likely that they'd have been given the dignity of covering their 'shame' anyhow.

I don't have a problem with artists trying to provoke - authors do it, film makers do it, newspapers do it. If they take it too far, sooner or later people will just dismiss them, but provoking people forces them to examine their views and values and requires them to actualy think beyond a knee jerk reaction ( which I suspect these protests are ) and explain why they consider something to be unacceptable. That in turn leads to debate, questions and maybe in time a shift in social values.

If people didn't push at boundaries and social taboos we'd be stuck with societies that stone homosexuals, punish for sex outside marriage and lock people up for digging their gardens on a Sunday. I know some people might think those values are a good think but then I think we'd be better off without those kinds of people.

[Merlion]

The latest news.

Controversial chocolate Jesus exhibit canceled (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/30/chocolate.jesus.ap/)

March 30, 2007

NEW YORK (AP) -- A planned Holy Week exhibition of a nude, anatomically correct chocolate sculpture of Jesus Christ was canceled Friday amid complaints from Catholics, including Cardinal Edward Egan.

The "My Sweet Lord" display was shut down by the hotel that houses the Lab Gallery in Manhattan, said Matt Semler, the gallery's creative director. Semler said he resigned after officials at the Roger Smith Hotel shut down the show.

The artwork was created from more than 200 pounds of milk chocolate and features Christ with his arms outstretched as if on an invisible cross. Unlike the typical religious portrayal of Christ, the artwork does not include a loincloth.

The 6-foot sculpture was the victim of "a strong-arming from people who haven't seen the show, seen what we're doing," Semler said. "They jumped to conclusions completely contrary to our intentions."

But word of the confectionary Christ infuriated Catholics, including Egan, who described it as "a sickening display." Bill Donohue, head of the watchdog Catholic League, said it was "one of the worst assaults on Christian sensibilities ever.

The hotel and the gallery were overrun Thursday with angry phone calls and e-mails. Semler said the calls included death threats over the work of artist Cosimo Cavallaro, who was described as disappointed by the decision to cancel the display.

"In this situation, the hotel couldn't continue to be supportive because of a fear for their own safety," Semler said.....

[EJB]

I can think of nothing more Christian than to threaten death to anyone that would suggest that Jesus had a penis.

[marblecutter]

Let us reflect on the self-portrait conversation that started on a previous thread. What if this sculptor created a self-portrait and calls it Christ? Other portraits of a Christ with long hair are very different from this hair-less chocolate Christ. Do we therefore create a Christ in our own image? Let us also Look at the Michelangelo fresco painting of the Last Judgment in the Sistine Chapel- There is no fragment of clothing on the Christ and on many of the other figures. The loin cloths that were painted after Michelangelo's death were recently removed during the cleaning and renovation of the Last Judgment to its near original state to be seen the way Michelangelo painted it and the way Pope Clement VII saw it.

About the Last Judgment:
"Once completed, the depictions of nakedness in the papal chapel was considered obscene and sacrilegeous, and Cardinal Carafa and Monsignor Sernini (Mantua's ambassador) campaigned to have the fresco removed or censored, but the Pope resisted. After Michelangelo's death, it was decided to obscure the genitals ("Pictura in Cappella Ap.ca coopriantur"). So Daniele da Volterra, an apprentice of Michelangelo, was commissioned to cover with sort of perizomas (briefs) the genitals, leaving unaltered the complex of bodies. When the work was restored in 1993, the restorers chose not to remove all the perizomas of Daniele, leaving some of them as a historical document and because some of Michelangelo's work was tragically scraped away by the touch-up artist application of "decency" to the masterpiece. A faithful uncensored copy of the original, by Marcello Venusti, can be seen at the Capodimonte Museum of Naples."

source:http://en.allexperts.com/e/m/mi/michelangelo.htm
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Gospel According to John:http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:kEp2zBJhVqAJ:www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom35.txt+naked+christ+in+the+last+jugement+aft er+renovation&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=safari
"...the naked majesty of God is at too great a distance from us, but also because
Satan interposes clouds of every description to hinder us from contemplating
God. The consequence is, that our faith, seeking God in his heavenly glory
and inaccessible light, vanishes away; and even the flesh, of its own
accord, suggests a thousand imaginations, to turn away our eyes from
beholding God in a proper manner."

[Merlion]

I notice this quote from the CNN story above.

The hotel and the gallery were overrun Thursday with angry phone calls and e-mails. Semler said the calls included death threats over the work of artist Cosimo Cavallaro,

Death threats! It appears that religious extremists are getting militant.

[marblecutter]

Why not re-title the sculpture and display it upside-down, perhaps pinned to a pole with arrows. Voila! Saint Sebastian.
The Oñate statue in El Paso Texas was changed to the Equestrian in order to please the grieving public who's hearts bleed with the mention of the name Oñate.
Should sculptors bend in order to please, or should they crawl under a rock, in a cave as they relinquish their artistic freedom and liberty? Shouldn't they remain standing for their rights?

[Merlion]

Cavallaro may say something in public, but I think he is not too upset that the show in the NY gallery is cancelled.

He has already received wide publicity because of this controversy. Google says there are, at this point in time, close to 500 online news reports, both local and world-wide. For what it is worth, I myself have never heard of him until this incident.

The hard fact is that controversy brings publicity to artists, especially at big rich cities like New York and London. Whether you think it is good of bad is another issue, a moral issue. Damien Hirst knows and likes it. So does Jeff Koons. And Cavallaro as well, I suppose.

Edit: I saw it just now on TV. It was a CNN world news program.

[Duck]

Here’s a link to some photos of a Crucifix I recently made and installed across the street at a friends business (industrial park), pretty much goes along with the chocolate Christ, but doubt it will get world wide attention.
http://www.clevelandsteel.us/bigcrucifixpage.html

duck

[Funes]

I like that one but I wouldn't have interpreted it as a crucifix unless there's somehting in context that makes it more obvious.

[Blake]

Here a Crucifix that I made some time ago, I think that it pretty much goes along with the chocolate Christ, but as with Duck, I just don’t think that I will get the world wide attention….. I wonder if perhaps it is because I haven't shown it in the states, or has it got something to do with Easter?
The Title is "Adam" just to confuse the issue.
If anyone can figure it out please let me know
Blake

[Merlion]

I remember your statue, Blake. Getting world wide attention creating and exhibiting controversial works? Firstly, are you interested?

[Landseer]

I notice this quote from the CNN story above.

Semler said the calls included death threats over the work of artist Cosimo Cavallaro,

Death threats! It appears that religious extremists are getting militant.Why am I NOT surprised in the least? did you note the total irony and hipocracy of this? death threats from these people LOL it truly fits my views on religion and religious fanatics who are obsessed with the whole thing to the point they start threatening death to people over things like sculptures.
The same ones blow up women's clinics and shoot doctors there or just blow them up, and this is where it STARTS.

[Landseer]

amid complaints from Catholics, including Cardinal Edward Egan.
Emboldened after the score a "victory" they'll be back you can bet on it, and it won't stop with strong arming and threats either.

The irony is Egan's involvement, I thought I recognized the shyster's name- from the S.N.A.P site;


Court documents reveal that New York Cardinal Edward M. Egan, while serving as bishop of the Bridgeport Roman Catholic Diocese, allowed several priests facing multiple accusations of sexual abuse to continue working for years

reply

I am not surprised one bit. Egan was in the greatest state of denial when the allegations first hit the papers. It took him a long time, along with Bishop Daily to admit any wrong doing, hiding behind the RCC for shelter. The one line in that article sums it up for me. Fr. Doyle made a comment about Egan having no compassion.
====

From NYmag.com

Some Sin, Some Lose
David Gibson’s excellent article “The Cardinal’s Sins (http://nymag.com/news/features/26989/index.html)” [February 5] helped me understand the complex personality traits of Cardinal Edward Egan. Egan’s whole life can be summed up as “the good soldier just following orders.” Unfortunately for thousands of children abused by Catholic priests, this meant following the long-standing Church policy of moving predator priests from parish to parish instead of contacting law enforcement. As a result, many innocent lives were harmed beyond measure.
—David Cerulli, Manhattan



An item not mentioned about Cardinal Edward Egan was that while serving the Bridgeport diocese, he argued in court documents, in cases involving pedophile priests, that said priests were independent contractors and hence the diocese bore no responsibility for their actions. Arguably, this could be one of his “sins.”
—Conrad Rutkowski, Pomona, N.Y.

Might like to read this article about him and learn a bit more about his background;

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/religion/features/6027/index1.html


But he protests a sculpture, go figure!

[GlennT]

It seems like we need another thread category, at least one that would open just before major Christian holidays, called " It's Attack Religion Time".

Blake: I think your work is too beautiful to be controversial. It shows maturity, talent, and restraint. I suppose in these times those qualities could be considered reactionary :rolleyes: .

GlennT

[Landseer]

It seems like we need another thread category, at least one that would open just before major Christian holidays, called " It's Attack Religion Time".


Unfortunately they interjected themselves unwanted, into the man's art show and disrupted it enough it's cancelled and they did it with threats to the hotel as well as death threats, offhand I'd say THAT whole matter seriously shows what is wrong with the entire church and it's deciples to not only act in that fashion but others condone it by not acting AGAINST it.
Maybe a few people should start calling these churches and pastors and start making a few counter-threats to them and see how the shoe fits on the other foot when they have to hire armed guards just to hold Sunday services or leave the building unattended at night!

Last time I looked this was America, not the sub-country of the pope's Vatican, Italy.

Emboldend by this subversive "victory" they will do this again, next time it could be YOUR sculptures, then the next time after that it could be because an event is held on SUNDAY, and then after that because a community prayer wasn't said before the show and money proffered by the well-to-do into the church coffers to have them look the other way.

Crooked, subversive, hypocritical bastards- every time I read about these scummy hypocritical church bastards - the whole damn bunch of them and their little crooked doings- I get sick to my stomach!

Beauty does not guarantee it won't be attacked, for Michaelangelo's David, replicas of it, and others have had their genitals covered up or attacked in some fashion. Let's not forget artwork uncovered in Pompei and Herculaneum had their genitals hacked off or otherwise obliterated, and some were re-buried because of the right wing xtains and their subversive 2nd century ways.

[Rick Clise]

Here a Crucifix that I made some time ago, I think that it pretty much goes along with the chocolate Christ, but as with Duck, I just don’t think that I will get the world wide attention….. I wonder if perhaps it is because I haven't shown it in the states, or has it got something to do with Easter?
The Title is "Adam" just to confuse the issue.
If anyone can figure it out please let me know
Blake

Hiya Blake, have you thought of casting a series of your Crucifix in chocolate? Perhaps an edition of thousands? Just in time for the next Easter? That should get religious militants up in arms! They'd probably have to post armed guards around the chocolate factory. Just think of the news coverage! ;)

Cheers, Rick

[Funes]

It seems like we need another thread category, at least one that would open just before major Christian holidays, called " It's Attack Religion Time".
GlennT

It's not an attack on religion so much as an attack on blind faith and those that seek to impose their religious values on other people - and frankly I think they deserve to be attacked ( though not in a physical sense ).

[Blake]

Glenn
I appreciate that you see the beauty within this sculpture, as that is the first objective within my work, thank you. Also knowing that you are a spiritual man, I am pleased that the work has not caused offense as this is of course not my intention.
That being said, the press may not be a bad thing as it does publisize the artists name and we artists all need this….. the artist probably called in the death threats himself so that he could get the news coverage.

Rick
I think that this is a great idea, one-quarter life-size chocolate Christs for Easter, do you think I can get a major chocolate manufacturer to sponsor it?
How would this go over in Australia?
I don’t mind the death threats so long as noone carries through, and so long as the press spells the name right.

Blake

[Rick Clise]

<snip>

Rick
I think that this is a great idea, one-quarter life-size chocolate Christs for Easter, do you think I can get a major chocolate manufacturer to sponsor it?
How would this go over in Australia?
I don’t mind the death threats so long as noone carries through, and so long as the press spells the name right.

Blake

Hi Blake, I don't know what the general market would be here in Oz for them but I'd buy a few! An Adelaide maker of fine chocolates - Haighs Chocolates - makes and sells a delicious local variant of the easter bunny, the 'easter bilby', and they have been making and selling them for years. Rabbits are an introduced species in Australia and can be terrible pests in this country, while the bilby is a native marsupial that (if you sorta squint a bit) could be mistaken for a somewhat deformed bunny.

So we might be able to find a local manufacturer for you. And I'm sure that we can also organise appropriate threats, with corresponding press!

:-)

Rick

[evaldart]

Sign me up for one. Cant afford a stone or a bronze Blake, but a chocolate one would fit the budget - I'd surely end up eating it at 3 am in lieu of a peanut butter sandwich (my middle of the night sugar-fix). But thats okay, cause there would be tons of them.

[Merlion]

There is a market. Blake, you'd better act fast.

Artist says offers are pouring in for chocolate Jesus sculpture (http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--chocolatejesus0401apr01,0,3947308.story?coll=ny-region-apnewyork)

April 1, 2007

Offers to buy or exhibit a nude chocolate sculpture of Jesus have poured in since the piece caused a stir and lost its gallery space in New York, said the artist who made it.

But artist Cosimo Cavallaro said Saturday he also received some threats, so he is storing the sculpture for now in a refrigerted truck in an unidentified location. .....

Cavallaro said the controversy spurred "thousands of e-mail messages from people offering help, donations and exhibition space.

"It's quite amazing" he said.

[cmustard]

I don't find this piece particularly offense or even close to the edge. I do however agree with what GlennT says in post #11.

[Blake]

Evidently I have missed my calling as a chocolate maker.
I think that this is a great idea although we are a little late for this year and much too late if we want to claim that the idea is original.
Notwithstanding……
When we pull a wax it is much like a chocolate would be, of course there would be some problems making it stand upright, and repairing the seams, but we can figure that out… cast a limited edition of say 5000.
I’ve already sold one to evaldart

Blake

[HappySculpting]

Here a Crucifix that I made some time ago, I think that it pretty much goes along with the chocolate Christ, but as with Duck, I just don’t think that I will get the world wide attention….. I wonder if perhaps it is because I haven't shown it in the states, or has it got something to do with Easter?
The Title is "Adam" just to confuse the issue.
If anyone can figure it out please let me know
Blake

Did you name your Crucifix "Adam" from the viewpoint that the bible refers to Jesus as the "Last Adam"? So technically, it's biblically accurate from that perspective. ( 1 cor 15:45 "The first man Adam became a living soul. the last Adam became a life giving spirit.) So... you might not be stirring any controversies with Christians from calling him "Adam". But now if you do a chocolate version of him they might think it's a tad sacriligious. :-)

[Aaron Schroeder]

Tom Waits did a song about a chocolate jesus, he called it an immaculate confection. Fun song, anyone else hear it.

[Blake]

Dear HappySculpting
I am pleased to have an official opinion on the Title thank you.
The reason that I portrayed the work this way, without biblical references (there is no crown of thorns, no nails, no wound, no loin cloth, and no cross) is that I wanted to depict this figure as a man, in order to imply that the Christian church had distorted reality to suit their purposes, and that the bible can not be read literaly but is meant mythically. The title is meant to confirm the idea that this is a man, as Adam is symbolically the first man. What ever further interpretation one chooses to apply to this man is the individual’s choice. The sculpture represents the foundation upon which further postulation is based.

I think that casting the work in chocolate would detract from this purpose as the work could be considered a joke at that point, and this work is not meant as a joke.

Blake

[Merlion]

Tom Waits did a song about a chocolate jesus, he called it an immaculate confection. Fun song, anyone else hear it.
I have not heard it, but Google knows the lyrics. Here are some of it.

Chocolate Jesus

Well, I don't go to church on Sunday
Don't get on my knees to pray
Don't memorize the books of the bible
I got my special way

I know Jesus loves me
maybe just a little bit more
I fall down on my knees every Sunday
at Zerelda Lee's candy store

Well, I've got to be a chocolate Jesus
Make me feel good inside
Got to be a chocolate Jesus
Keep me satisfied .....

Written by Tom Waits and Kathleen Waits-Brennan, 1999

[Aaron Schroeder]

Thanks merlion, that's it exactly. Your dedication to search and post has yet to be matched. Yoo the MAN !!

[Duck]

I wanted to depict this figure as a man, in order to imply that the Christian church had distorted reality to suit their purposes,

BlakeThe distortion goes on and on, the crucifix itself is said to have been but a single ten foot pole with a few stones piled around the base. My hat’s off to Cusimo and his sweet Jesus.

[HappySculpting]

The distortion goes on and on, the crucifix itself is said to have been but a single ten foot pole with a few stones piled around the base. My hat’s off to Cusimo and his sweet Jesus.

Yes, he died on a stake, an upright pole, as the common criminals were regulartly impailed on. It was not a cross. His hands were above his head and nailed to the solitary post with one nail. There are many distortions and adaptations from the original truth- but that's a whole nother' subject.

Blake- yes, your work is no joke- a pleasure to see as always.

[Merlion]

Blake: I think your work is too beautiful to be controversial. It shows maturity, talent, and restraint.
Hope you are not implying that controversial works cannot be beautiful, or vice versa. This is a general comment and not related to Blake's beautiful work.

Isn't it a wrong perception that evil things are ugly, and good things are beautiful. The big problem is that society believe beautiful people to be good, and the ugly people to be bad or evil.

[desertrock]

I don't have a problem with it. The way I see it: If it weren't chocolate no one would complain. It almost seems fitting, given that Easter and chocolate traditionally go together.
Where's the sense of humor here. Christ himself is probably laughing his head off over the absurdity of it.

Mark

[Ries]

The Catholic league has a history of flying off the handle over perceived slights, which are usually way overblown- for instance, a few years ago, they got all upset about an installation a friend of mine did- Spanish Artist Miralda, who installed a piece at the Copia museum in Napa that included, amongst something like 1000 other components, 20 or so "caganers" which are little figurines of a person pooping, which are traditionally put in nativity scenes in Catalonia.
Some of the Caganers he has collected included Santa Claus, Nuns, Popes, and angels defacating. These are all folk art objects he collected, which are sold in Catalonia for use in nativity scenes- even the official catholic scenes outside the cathedral feature these, andt the tradition goes back a couple of hundred years- but the Catholic league, without any research or knowledge, decided they were a slur against Catholicism.

http://www.ncac.org/art/20020107~USA~Catholic_League_Objects_to_Traditiona l_Figurines_in_Art_Installation.cfm

The difference I see with this chocolate jesus is that its basically a one-liner- its a kitsch image of christ, one we have seen a million times, rendered in chocolate. There is no creativity here, no real interest.
Just because someone can accurately sculpt the image of christ, doesnt mean I have any interest in looking at it, one more time. I purposely skip churches in Italy- I am overdosed on christian images for my entire life, as it is.

Contrast this to the Andres Serrano "Piss Christ" photographs, which are part of a series of works that makes, to me anyway, interesting comments about how we think about religion, culture, and the sacred. And, additionally, the Serrrano photographs are stunningly beautiful in real life- I would love to have one in my home. Unfortunately, they are quite expensive, as many other collectors feel the way I do.
I dont think this chocolate jesus has much intrinsic beauty or interest, beyond the joke- I would not want to look at it again and again, it would not make me think. Like most Kitsch, it makes its statement only to the degree it reflects on how superiour we are to people who take crucifixes seriously.
The Serrano pieces, in my opinion, are a whole nother, higher level of art, pieces that function on many levels at once, and, whatever you think of them, are not kitsch.

[evaldart]

I remember my first holy communion very well. 14 years old. It was the first time alcohol had passed my lips - Mogen David, the cheapest damn red wine known to man. Could'a ruined me and scared me away from booze forever; but I got over it. And the pastor just went right down the line with that big fancy cup pouring away into everyone's gaping maws (at the end of the row I was mortified by thoughts of backwash). So then that drinking of the blood was quickly followed-up by the stuffing-in of that cardboard piece of the lord's body. And there was no lunch-lady glove, just spittled fingers dipping to the rythm of whatever incantation echoed for our eventual benefit. People had stronger constitutions then. I'm sure its done different now that we are out of the dark ages. But I don't know.

[Merlion]

Is it correct Jesus ask his followers to eat his body and drink his blood, and to do it frequently? It is a very horrid idea, isn't it?

[GlennT]

Many religious ideas are horrid if they are interpreted as literal with the intellect instead of with a spiritual understanding. If you understand that the symbolic vehicles of the communion wine and waffer are supposed to be infused with spiritual light via the blessing, and what you are partaking of is an infusion of a part of the Spiritual body of Christ, not flesh and blood, it at least becomes more understandable even if one is the type of person who is "far superior" to those who take the such matters seriously.

Truly horrid are the Islamic fanatics who take teachings that were meant to be applied to one's own internal cleansing and purification, and instead turn it into an external battle as a " holy" war against all people who do not accept their way. They don't manufacture death threats for the sake of publicity, they actually mean to carry them out if they are able. They fail to recognize that all members of the faiths of Judism, Christianity, and Islam share a common link to the prophet Abraham, and consequently are all brothers literally as well as figuratively.

There are a lot of religious teachings that have been perverted or used to justify anti-religious behavior because they have been interpreted by the carnal mind to create a justification for bad intentions. When interpreted with the higher mind these teachings are beautiful and instructive, and if not cherished ought to be at least respected and not made the butt of disrespectful attacks. It is fine to point out the corruptors of a doctrine, but they do not represent the truth behind that which they misuse.

In regards to the sculpture in question, it is hard for me to take it seriously when it's theme and exhibition is timed to provoke the maximum negative response and gain publicity therefrom. I personally am not moved by it one way or the other, but they weren't going after me. I just see it as another in a series of "prank art" whose purpose is to provoke a response for publicity rather than add anything positive to the art world. In this it succeeded.

GlennT

[Merlion]

Glenn, don't take what I said just now seriously. I'm not attacking nor defending any religion.

[GlennT]

Merlion:

I did not think that you were attacking, it was actually a valid question given the literal interpretation. I took the occaision both to answer your query and to respond in general to the barrage of religious contempt that comes out every time some aspect of a religious topic enters into the discussion of artwork here.

I think of you as the ultimate newscaster...putting out the news, controversial or not, without adding much of your own personal bias to the presentation. Thanks for keeping us informed!

GlennT

[evaldart]

Presently my "attacks" are being mounted against some mice that moved into my house over the winter, and my wrath therein is unleashed. Also, I have about another thirty years or so of sculpture to accomplish. So the world's religions can rest easy...until later.

[Landseer]

IAnd the pastor just went right down the line with that big fancy cup pouring away into everyone's gaping maws (at the end of the row I was mortified by thoughts of backwash). So then that drinking of the blood was quickly followed-up by the stuffing-in of that cardboard piece of the lord's body. And there was no lunch-lady glove, just spittled fingers dipping to the rythm of whatever incantation echoed for our eventual benefit.
Great way to spread Smallpox in the old days, polio, influenza, colds and all sorts of nasty stuff, I'm sure this horrid practice has resulted in plenty of illnesses and deaths, many probably never even knew how they contracted things when they became sick a few days later.

Is it correct Jesus ask his followers to eat his body and drink his blood, and to do it frequently? It is a very horrid idea, isn't it? Yeah it's pretty bizarre, book is full of and obsessed with blood, death, orders to stone people to death including children who "curse their parents" and more. It's probably the most violent book in literature.

When interpreted with the higher mind these teachings are beautiful and instructive, and if not cherished ought to be at least respected and not made the butt of disrespectful attacks. It is fine to point out the corruptors of a doctrine, but they do not represent the truth behind that which they misuse.
Regardless of the words are "interpreted", exactly how many ways can a direct written order to commit murder over minor "infractions" like adultry, divorce, cursing one's parents;

"they shall be stoned to death"

be interpreted??
Leviticus

god gives detailed instructions for performing ritualistic animal sacrifices. such bloody rituals must be important to god, judging from the number of times that he repeats their instructions. Indeed the entire first nine chapters of Leviticus can be summarized as follows: Get an animal, kill it, sprinkle the blood around, cut the dead animal into pieces, and burn it for a "sweet savor unto the Lord."

"The priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle the blood seven times before the Lord." 4:6 (""),

Sacrifice, a central tenet of Judaism and Christianity, is implicitly violent. A young bullock is killed, its throat slit, its blood drained. The animal struggles until its death-throes cease. Its blood, a source of purification, is sprinkled on the altar. The violence continues as the animal is flayed, quartered, and burnt. Barbecues for a demanding God who seems (according to the Tanakh) to relish blood sacrifices and burnt offerings.

1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it's OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.

2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.

3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.

4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.

5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.

6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.

7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

[sculptor]

communion shot
how about an ithyphallic cherry wine filled chocolate jesus
in a cellophane package
entitled
take a bite outa jesus
bite in the right place, and the blood red wine trickles down your chin and onto Monica's dress

'course then
lotsa wine seeking teens would probably start thinking that
the king of the jews
was a man
of color

is that offensive 'nuff?

[GlennT]

Landseer:

For someone who seems to despise religion and goes into a fit when it is mentioned on this forum, you seem to be pretty well read in the scriptures. I think that if I were to quote scripture you would be on my case for bringing religion into a forum about art. Nevertheless....

I cannot give a very good interpretation of much of the old testament, as it is more of a historical teaching written by humans during a particular age with different values than today. I look at is as instructive stories rather than the direct word of God. So when I have read it, I have had to weed out the elements that don't make sense to me and stuck with those passages or teachings that do. I don't throw out the baby with the bath water, just as I don't hold all science at fault just because of all the alarmist false predictions and claims made over the last several centuries which have been proven false.

Regarding the passages from the New Testament that you quoted, in #6 Jesus is not being critical of the Jews for not killing disobediant children. Rather, he is using that doctrine to point out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees who attacked him on the basis of the letter of the law, when in fact they were not followers of the letter of the law in their own tradition. so he quoted that doctrine as an example.

Again, in #7, Jesus is not ordering anyone killed who does not obey him, he is rather giving a parable in which a landlord is acting as a returner of karma, adding the positive to those who did good works, negative to those that did negative works, and death those who were full of hatred. Which I admit is extreme, but is a parable given in the language that the people of its time would understand. Only by willful ignorance could it be interpreted as a command from Jesus.

There have been violent acts throughout history, including animal sacrifice in most cultures including Greek and Roman, and persisting to this day in some parts of the world. My sense of this is that none of it is pleasing to God. Nor is misuse of truth to justify error, nor is mockery of that which is good.

It is ironic to me that in a time in my personal life where I have if anything become less religious than in my past, I find myself continually defending religion against scurrilous attacks on this forum, more for the sake of trying to help some of you get over your antagonism than anything else. There is also the danger that those who believe in nothing will therefore have nothing to stand upon in their defense when facing those who would like to destroy them and who are emboldened by a belief in something, however misguided.

As for chocolate nude men who are called Jesus but really don't look like him anyways but that doesn't matter because its all a gimmick...permit me to yawn.

GlennT

[evaldart]

Oh yeah, jesus was a long-haired, blue-eyed, bearded caucasian (at least thats the picture I saw on a lot of walls everywhere). That chocolate-sculpting dude must not have used any reference photos.

[Merlion]

Somehow most of the major religions of our troubled world can be militant and violent - Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism. I think the least militant is Buddhism.

I notice the first three I listed have their same first origin, the belief of Abraham. It is a most regretable fact, an objective statement and not an attack, that these three are currently giving our world the most trouble.

Talking about attacking religions, I do not see any point in doing it. It is a negative act.

[Landseer]

Landseer:

For someone who seems to despise religion and goes into a fit when it is mentioned on this forum, you seem to be pretty well read in the scriptures. I think that if I were to quote scripture you would be on my case for bringing religion into a forum about art. Nevertheless....
Glenn, you said;
"When interpreted with the higher mind these teachings are beautiful and instructive...It is fine to point out the corruptors of a doctrine, but they do not represent the truth behind that which they misuse."

I pointed out a few lines showing there's no way anyone can possibly misuse or misinterpret quoted text like "they shalt be stoned to death".
"kill it and sprinkle the blood on.."

It doesn't take a professor's degree, a college degree, nor does have to be a rocket scientist to know exactly what a line like that MEANS- take an "adulterer" "pagan" or whatever and kill them the way they do in the middle east- stoning the victim. Have you seen a public stoning? I have and this comes from the bible/quoran/religions which direct it.

I pointed out the violence and hypocracy, and also how militants use religion in many ways, one of which is brainwashing new recruits.


I cannot give a very good interpretation of much of the old testament, as it is more of a historical teaching written by humans during a particular age with different values than today.
THAT'S the problem, it WAS written by men, a number of "books" were not included, the old supposedly superceded by the new testiment and with the missing "books" as well as selective inclusions, one can't wonder what was left OUT that may very well have superceded many of the issues that are in the forefront today- gay/lesbian/divorce and so on.


I look at is as instructive stories rather than the direct word of God. So when I have read it, I have had to weed out the elements that don't make sense to me and stuck with those passages or teachings that do.
I call this cherry picking, which is exactly what churches teach- we are going to totally overlook the failure of marriage and it's 50% divorce rate, the "sin" of divorce, the prohibition against remarrying, sex outside of marriage, the pope's condemnation of birth control etc but then we are going to selectively "enforce" a few other things we don't "like"- it's total hypocracy at it's best there- doas I say not as I do.
The SAME hypocrit people preaching all this love, forgiveness etc you then find are diddling little boys on the side not only with the knowlege of the church but protected BY the church and moved from one parish to another with the help of higherups who knew all the way up to the damn cardinals and bishops!
They wouldnt ordain women or gays, but child diddling priests were kept on the payroll and moved around for years and years.


Again, in #7, Jesus is not ordering anyone killed who does not obey him,
Well when it says "THOU SHALT" or "Thy blood shall be upon them" it's pretty clear that's not a request


It is ironic to me that in a time in my personal life where I have if anything become less religious than in my past, I find myself continually defending religion against scurrilous attacks on this forum, more for the sake of trying to help some of you get over your antagonism than anything else.
There is no way anyone is going to convince me otherwise Glenn, it simply will not happen. As I like to say- I am a "recovering EX Christian"
this topic comes up here, no one has any control here over what others decide to include in a post, at least initially till a mod looks it over.
So when a post comes up, there it is for a response of some kind.

This "jesus this jesus that, god this god that, lord this lord that, the bible says... is as offensive to me (and others who don't believe in this) as posts extolling the glory of satan, pan the goat god, or bestiality might be to you.
If I have to read about god, jesus, lord, bible and all this stuff on a sculpture forum and somehow that applies to art, then I could start posting about bestiality and sex with animals in art and sculpture though the ages and provide images of a variety of ancient and historical art depicting it from museums and elsewhere- it would be as offensive to you as this religious stuff is to me.

So the solution is we DROP this religion stuff except in the context of describing a sculpture one is making- "this is a new bronze cross I am making for so and so church" is describing the sculpture while
"this is a new bronze cross I am making for so and so church for the glory of god thru the service of jesus christ" is pushing religion, and we are going to have stuff like "this is a new bronze cross I am making for so and so church for the glory of god thru the service of jesus christ" then I should start posting about the bestiality related artwork and provide links for more information on the benefits of bestiality since they would be relative to one another and sculpture/artwork.



As for chocolate nude men who are called Jesus but really don't look like him anyways but that doesn't matter because its all a gimmick...permit me to yawn.
GlennTNo one knows what "jesus" looked like, no one knows a whole lot about this person, date of birth etc
Easter is nothing more now that a commercial holiday for Hallmark to sell lots of cards and chocolate bunnies, christmas now is a 3 almost 4 MONTHS long saleabration that starts now with the stupid lights and plastic Santas by mid November and still going thru January and I'm sick of it.

Now, can we drop the religion thing in here with this thread?

[Blacksun]

I'm not real sure what the problem is with the sculpture...it is an artistic depiction of Christ at his crucifixtion... The entire theology of the Christian religion is based upon the triune God assuming human form (God's only begotten Son) and living a sinless life on earth as a man, accepting the guilt and sins of humanity upon his shoulders in an intercessory act, and a physical ressurection from the grave. The key is that he came and lived and died as a man. A sinless man, but a man nevertheless. Simple contemporary public display asthetics would suggest a loincloth, afterall we all know what is under the loincloth.... but if this artist chose to show Christ in his birthday suit, so what.

Happy Easter!

[anatomist1]

I must say that I am shocked by the anti-religious diatribes I have read in this thread. I believe in respecting other people and their quaint, primitive beliefs. Rather than taking offense, I can only find kindness, magnanimity, and deep humility in my own exceptionally generous heart.

I proclaim to all: no matter how completely and invcontrovertably wrong you are when you disagree with me, no matter how much smarter I am than you are, and no matter how humiliately inane and nonsensical your viewpoints are, I will always accept and respect you and listen to you patiently.

Please know that you have so many vital, priceless qualities, shared by all of us.... for instance, under the current laws, I am strictly prohibited from having you killed. I pledge that I will always hold you in the highest esteem no matter how deluded, wretched, irrational, unwashed, and prone to huddling or gathering in masses you may be.

Peace be with you.

[evaldart]

A bunch of artists in a room with politics or religion better heat things up a bit. We are not a crowd comfortable with restrictions. And as life is so irrevocably entwined with with art I do not feel we should refrain from asserting ourselves. We can't just talk about tools and pat each other on the backs. It would be very difficult to tiptoe through the wide range of issues that get brought into this forum without offending SOMEONE. If someone tells me that their Husky air compressor is out-performing my Ingerssoll Rand...well thems fightin' words. But I'll get over it after a sardonic expulsion has been posted in retort. If you are going to open a certain kind of door - even just a crack - you better be thick-skinned enough for that door to be pushed open.

[Landseer]

Ok, my new portable Makita air compressor is simply better than your Ingersoll-Rand beyond any question. With it's cast-iron cylinder, oil level eye, tank drain lever, nice instrument panel, quiet operation it simply is superior.

[Duck]

Please know that you have so many vital, priceless qualities, shared by all of us.... for instance, under the current laws, I am strictly prohibited from having you killed. I pledge that I will always hold you in the highest esteem no matter how deluded, wretched, irrational, unwashed, and prone to huddling or gathering in masses you may be.

Peace be with you.
That’s the same chicken shit mentality Jerry Falwell has, you’ve been told killing is strictly prohibited, so you won’t kill, or have me killed,..good for you,... and for God’s sake don’t do a chocolate Christ.
By the way, though not religious, I consider myself a Christian and a very spiritual man.

peace

[Aaron Schroeder]

I'm living this studio artist life style because it enables me to get away from it all and have a few moments each day to myself and my own interest. I'm a social creature, nosey and inquisitive, I like to hear what people talk about, so I listen as an outsider, trying to understand what people are so excited about, I've been listening for quite a while, sometimes I even particapate, yet to this day I'm not equipted to deal with all the ideas, issues, conflicts and raging debates. Most of what I hear and have heard scares and confuses me, I just want to forget it all and get back to my little world where I can experience a small sense of control. Let them fight, while they're not looking, I'm just going to sneek off and get some me time.

[Tlouis]

anatomist1

How should the unwashed, dumber than you, wretched, unwashed, huddled masses of morons read your post? As a whopping big piece of tongue in cheek blather, or as an unbridled piece of arrogance?

Lou

[Landseer]

As a whopping big piece of tongue in cheek blather, or as an unbridled piece of arrogance?

LouRead the posting history, and from it decide for yourself.

[sculptor]

Recapping:

It seems that Anatomist respects
quaint,
inane,
incontrovertibly wrong,
deluded,
wretched,
irrational,
unwashed,

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... ok, I'll go with that

give me your huddled masses on a cold winter's night, and we'll snuggle and keep each other warm

go team

Randal do keep posting your "diatribes"
most biblical scholars are pro book
you offer a refreshing anecdote

---------
merlion
the 3 you listed have a GOD
to the best of my knowledge, the pagan religions of europe had no "GOD"
mostly, they had euhemerized symbols of aspects of nature
and
Tao is without "GOD"
and
Buddism is without "GOD"
and
blood and genocide just ooze out of the pages of the old testament
maybe, just maybe ,
the turmoil is part of the package?
and yet
"GODless" is a standard slur

curiouser and curiouser

[GlennT]

If the Buddhist texts were historical records they would also ooze with the bloodshed of sectarian violence in their earlier history, before they grew up and decided to study Buddhism instead of "king -of -the -correct- doctrine -hill".
If the job of the bible is to depict how God worked with a people and and era that was steeped in violence, in an effort to ween them out from that culture and into a more transcendant one, then I would expect both the historical chronical and the bias of the authors to include violence as part of the picture.

The Taoist as far as I know have been rather peaceful, even when the godless Mao Tse Dung murdered 60 million of them. The Jewish people were more or less peaceful when the godless Hitler sysyematically murdered 6 million of them. The Russian christians, Jews, and atheists wer also relatively quiet when the godless Stalin murdered 20 million of them. Godless Europe seems poised to roll over backwards and allow the violent Islamic radicals to take over their culture, in the name of Allah. It is hard to stand against them in the name of Greenpeace. Don't expect help from the godless UN, who has yet to figure out if the slaughter of millions of Sudanese really counts as genocide.

I don't see the truly godless as having any moral superiority over the religious. In quantity of time, perhaps more violence has been done in the name of religion. In the quantity of numbers, much more killing has been done by the secular types.

Since every devout Christian and Jew that I know, and for that matter the dozens of Muslims that I know, are not engaged in violence, but are living positive, productive lives, I tend to think that there is actually some character-forming good that has occurred in their study of the bible and other religious texts. I don't consider that my mind has taken a particularly violent turn from having read the bible, nothwithstanding a temptation to tweak Landseer's nose.

I recall some line about "the devil quoting scripture", and if you interpret the word "devil" to mean "deified evil", I can see how anything can be twisted by hatred and anger to present a distorted picture. What is rarer and of more value is to present a truth that can uplift a soul and help them find their way out of darkness into the light. Even if that "truth" is only a temporary truth that is meant to help the soul until a greater truth is ready to be assimilated in its place.

I think that God is more interested in the victory of each individual soul than in the game of "who's got the right doctrine". If the love of plants and animals gets you there, that's fine too. It is the love that gets you there, right?

GlennT

[Tlouis]

Hey all,

Lest we forget, this site is devoted to SCULPTURE in all it's aspects.

So leave us dispense with all this religion palaver. Like Landseer, I'm sick of it!

And move on to more important stuff...like with easter coming up, let's see who can scarf down the most rainbow colored Peeps and chocolate bunnies in under 30 seconds.

Lou
:)

[Tired Iron]

Boy , it's hard to keep up with this thread! The postings are flying , fast and furious! I do believe there was a lot of humour in Anatomist1's posting, irregaurdless of his past postings. The man does have some wit. (Quite a bit ,I'd say) But like Arron I think I'll poke my head in once in a while and see what y'all are up too and then go back about my business. albeit , grinning from ear to ear. :D

[HappySculpting]

Yes, this a sculpture forum and let's keep it on topic. If we want to discuss anything off topic, we have the "Art Lounge" for that.

While the scriptures in Landseer's post may seem to paint God as unloving and unjust, there are reasons for what is sited. Since this is a sculpture forum I won't give my reply to each of his points here. Please pm me and I'll give you my answer. I've studied the bible all of my life and know of all the scriptures Landseer quotes and the why behind it. Those with a heart that sincerely wants answers can pm me.

Note to all: Can we show respect for people's beliefs and not be belittling? There are a lot of Christians here at this site and it's rude to be disrespectful to their Bible and beliefs. My opinion.

~Tamara

[dilida]

This is a cool thread! I posted my being uncomfortable with the sculpture with a somewhat heavy heart because I had a feeling where it would go, (NOT the nudity, that's no big deal). I knew posting my gut instinct could be a mistake. I intentionally avoided reading this thread for days now, 'cause I'm not much of a people person, ya'lls got your opinions, I have mine. Having just read all of it, I'm grinning big! I don't think you can separate ART and PERSONAL BELIEFS. Isn't it what we do all day long? Hell, right now I'm so busy with other people's work I probably won't get to do mine own for the rest of this year!(Oklahoma's centennial is this year, everyone wants to commemorate it with a bronze monument). But I still thank God everyday for my ability to work with my hands, it gives me such a good feeling, even if I'm not "creating". I do think respect should be the order of the day, though. Peace won't come without respect.

sincerely,
lisa

[evaldart]

I fully agree Lisa but respect and disrespect are as relative and subjective as anything else. I have percieved challenges in this forum but not disrespect (even if it had been intended).. I have a very high tolernce I suppose and a longish fuse. I'm not on anyone's side, my version of what I believe (or do not believe) has become its own entity, an ever morphing ideology that inches me closer to some big truth everyday. But the cynic in me wonders if it isn't like Zeno's paradox - I continue daily to halve the distance between myself and that Truth, ever arriving but not quite getting there. So it is written, by this logic, Saint Sebastian would have only died of fright. The arrows would disagree. So I know I'll get there.

The pepperings of good-natured self-righteousness just add up, from all sides, and it had nothing to do with the chocolate Jesus...It was just time for things to get let loose. It will happen again.

[Merlion]

This latest story below is based on a phone interview with the artist.

I find this excerpt interesting. "Surprisingly, the work is actually not that original. A chocolate Jesus was crucified by another artist in Britain last year. There was outrage, but no ban on its hanging."

Perhaps the difference is that the sculpture last year was not fully nude (just a guess), was not to be shown during the Holy Week, and was not in a NY gallery.

Treated to controversy (http://torontosun.com/News/Canada/2007/04/04/3914759-sun.html)

April 4, 2007, Sweet Jesus, Canadian artist Cosimo Cavallaro vowed yesterday his hard-to-stomach depiction of the Son of God will rise again.

Because even while his original -- made completely out of chocolate -- is at risk of melting away in a cluttered basement, Montreal-born Cosimo has kept the mould for others to follow. ....

Yesterday, the crucified artwork rested in the catacomb of a dimly lit New York-area basement. It waited unwrapped and remained among the clutter of trash cast off from another artist's installation work.

"It may be there throughout the (Easter) weekend," said a frustrated Cosimo, a 44-year-old artist who was trained in Montreal and Toronto.

"If it melts, I may have to (remould) the chocolate to make another." ....

As we talked, he had to hang up, saying there was an emergency. Contacted later, he explained someone had found the urban tomb he's hidden his work away in, and was trying to sneak in --.....

Surprisingly, the work is actually not that original. A chocolate Jesus was crucified by another artist in Britain last year. There was outrage, but no ban on its hanging.....

Cosimo is considering several offers to find sanctuary.

A nondenominational church wants his cocoa Christ, as, apparently, do some other galleries who are willing to brave the heat of controversy. ....

[Landseer]

Randal do keep posting your "diatribes"
most biblical scholars are pro book
you offer a refreshing anecdote

Haha, well as they say "Know they enemy" and one has to read a book or watch a movie to comment on it's contents,

Tao is without "GOD"
and
Buddism is without "GOD"

"GODless" is a standard slur
Ok, I guess we are going to keep going then.

Do we even need one who never shows his/her/it's face, one no one sees and speaks nothing? One who never offers clear signs on ANYTHING?
Let's see, was that earthquake a "sign" or just the earth? was that tsunami a "sign" or just the water? how do we tell the difference between a "warning sign" like "Behave this instant or ye shall be smitted!!" and just general ordinary earthly rumblings?
I'm no mind reader and don't have a 6th sense, so the tsunami is a movement of the earth unless a lighted billboard pops up in the sky that says "RANDALL: this is a message from the creator" just to make it a little less vague and clearer you know.

As far as Hitler and the other "god-less" who killed many, Hitler was a mentally ill psychotic who came along just when Germany was down and needed someone to bolster them. His mother died when he was a boy due to a doctor's incompetence, studies on his somewhat odd head shape brought forth at least one theory about his mental illness. Whether he had religion or not he was a psychotic mental case and THAT was the cause.
Lets not forget the christian violence committed BECAUSE of the religion and it's bible- tens of thousands brutally slaughtered, jailed, hung, burned had it been modern times with the population of WW2 era I have no doubt the numbers would have been in the millions, but since it was in the middle ages and the USA wasn't founded yet, and the world population far less than now: estimated 300 million in 1100- percentage wise probably the numbers dead due to religion probably equal ww2 when the planet had and estimated 2.3 BILLION people (1940) of which a tiny fraction- 6 million were killed by "godless" Hitler.

1 million out of 300 million would be roughly equal to 6 million out of 2.3 billion, key question is how many did the catholic church and it's derivatives and followers kill over the 9+ crusades, religious wars, Salem witch trials, hangings, torture and jailings for heresy and all the rest over CENTURIES?

The victims of the church include men, women, children, animals of all sorts- entire villages- a long and bloody history thanks to the lord and his book. Misread or misinterpreted or misued is not important when the CAUSE is the religion and the book, had they not existed to begin with they couldn't have been "misused" nor "misinterpreted"

Even the native Americans were slaughtered by the thousands, entire tribes and run down in the name of the lord by white settlers who said they could manage the land for the lord better. The first germ warfare was even used in this country by church going christians- giving the natives smallpox infected blankets to kill as many as they could with diseases.

Add in the pedophile prist fiasco that still continues even now, add in the Vatican's HUGE valuable art collection, gold, silver, paintings, add in the nation-wide scope of sterling silver and gold collection plates, trinkets, staned glass and all the rest including the $350 million Los Angeles Cathedral just finished a few years ago while homeless and others starve and the whole thing just stinks.


Yes, the crusades may be a "long time ago" but then so is ww2 just not AS long ago, dead people tell no tales
and apologies, memorials and meals-on-wheels don't bring dead people back nor make up for the past.
-------

Below uoted from the source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

On a popular level, the first crusades unleashed a wave of impassioned, personally felt pious Christian fury that was expressed in the massacres of Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) that accompanied the movement of the Crusader mobs through Europe, as well as the violent treatment of "schismatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schism)" Orthodox Christians of the east. The violence against the Orthodox Christians culminated in the sack of Constantinople in 1204, in which most of the crusading armies took part. During many of the attacks on Jews, local Bishops and Christians made attempts to protect Jews from the mobs that were passing through. Jews were often offered sanctuary in churches and other Christian buildings, but the mobs broke in and killed them anyway.

Pope Urban II called upon all Christians to join a war against the Turks, promising those who died in the endeavor immediate remission of their sins.

[sound familiar? allah and the 72 virgins for killing non Muslims?]


Crusader armies managed to defeat two substantial Turkish forces at Dorylaeum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dorylaeum) and at Antioch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Antioch), finally marching to Jerusalem with only a fraction of their original forces. In 1099, they took Jerusalem by assault (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%281099%29) and massacred the population. As a result of the First Crusade, several small Crusader states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_states) were created, notably the Kingdom of Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Jerusalem).

[Blacksun]

Landseer / Randall,

You seem to exist in a very dark and unhappy place. I like having reassurance that my God, the God, cares about me, about the world, about everyone and everything else. I'll be glad to introduce you if you'd like. I prefer the King James Version, and I would recommend starting with the book of John. Let me know if you need help with the translations from Olde King's English.

[Landseer]

Landseer / Randall,

You seem to exist in a very dark and unhappy place. I like having reassurance that my God, the God, cares about me, about the world, about everyone and everything else. I'll be glad to introduce you if you'd like. I prefer the King James Version, and I would recommend starting with the book of John. Let me know if you need help with the translations from Olde King's English.
Quite to the contrary Blacksun! Thanks for your offer but I've seen more than enough long ago to know I want NO part of that book.

[fused]

Here's a NY bloggers response to the Chocolate Jesus. (http://edwardwinkleman.blogspot.com/2007/03/my-own-personal-chocolate-jesus-not.html)

I wonder if Cosimo Cavallaro listens to Tom Waits? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wfamPW3Eaw)

[Landseer]

Here's a NY bloggers response to the Chocolate Jesus. (http://edwardwinkleman.blogspot.com/2007/03/my-own-personal-chocolate-jesus-not.html)

"Bill Donohue, head of the watchdog Catholic League, said it was "one of the worst assaults on Christian sensibilities ever."

Boy, I'm getting more and more motivated now into doing my own jesus sculpture like that but far worse and really assult their "sensibilities" it would be a great laugh and protest but the media could never publish a photo of it I'm sure- especially since they "haze" the chocolate statue's genitals out of focus.
Wonder if there's a gallery brave enough to stand up firm against the likes of the "catholic league" and tell them where they can go along with their "threats" and nasty grams.

Funny they protest a sculpture but I never find any denomination publicly condemning the Westboro BAPTIST Church and demanding they remove references to "Baptist" in their name and hate, along with their anti gay and other slams which seems totally acceptable as long as it's from a church, but do the same to a church or religion and holy cow all hell breaks loose they get soo insulted and outraged, true hypocrits.

See how this tax exempt Baptist church is in this clip by a reporter;
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1b1_1175643214

[sculptor]

On the other hand
belief
worship
reverence
belonging to a spiritual community with shared beliefs

can be wonderful things that complete us.

There is something
about us
about our world
about our shared changes in the co-evolution of this complex biosphere
that is not understood, nor known by our limited science
for lack of a better term
I'll use
non-corporeal (you may prefer- "spiritual being")
until science catches up

this unknown often manifests itself through the above practices and applications of worship(et.al.)and may be known as miracles

and
the act of belief(et.al.)
likely trains the body(behaviorists psychology) in the exercise
of the undefined non-corporeal

perception governs conception governs perception governs conception governs perception governs conception.......
science can only measure that for which it has the instrumentation

by denying religion, would we deny the use and exercise and existence of
the non-corporeal?

an artist learns to see
seeing begets understanding
understanding begets a true sense of awe and wonder

By our shared artistic exercises, I have faith that even if we're not on the same path, we are all moving from the darkness and learning to see.
Then you(we) are the peers whose shared conflicts of words and worships enlighten my(our) understandings.

delightedly yours
rod

[Tired Iron]

Rod, I think that your last posting would be a fitting end to this thread....any "amens" to that?

[Merlion]

Yes. Amen.

[Duck]

Yes. Amen.
For all those that care about it, I hope you all have a safe and wonderful Easter weekend.

[evaldart]

And next weekend too.

E

[Blacksun]

Amen.

"it is finished" Crown of Thorns - a respectful Christ figure sculpture (http://members.tripod.com/~Sculptor_3/index-4.html)

[fused]

I hope you've all had a good Friday and have a safe weekend.

Reading Landseer's post I imagined a Jesus with George Bush's face and a pair of six shooters strapped around his waist.

The Easter Bunny/Crucified Christ combo is an interesting response to a modern holiday and the shallow nature of many people's beliefs. The Catholic uproar only magnifies this sentiment in my eyes, as if someone of faith could actually believe a chocolate sculpture has any effect on their religious convictions.

He's not the kind you have to wind up on Sunday.

[Landseer]

as if someone of faith could actually believe a chocolate sculpture has any effect on their religious convictions.Curiouser still are those who feel the need to DEFEND god/creator/allah/mohammad/whatever, as though these entities NEED to be defended against words, sculptures, comics, or can't defend themselves if they even exist or care to defend themselves.

[sculptor]

Curiouser still are those who feel the need to DEFEND god/creator/allah/mohammad/whatever, as though these entities NEED to be defended against words, sculptures, comics, or can't defend themselves if they even exist or care to defend themselves.

Long ago and far away, during my studies into religion and mythology, i came upon a poem which i only partially remember about the demise of the greek gods

"Then feasted they all day
till the setting of the sun
then along came a ragged jew
dragging a huge wooden cross
as he approached the table,
the gods grew silent
he then threw down the cross
on their feast table
and the Gods
just faded away"
(not an exact rendition of the original)(if anyone remembers the original...)

By the above, it seems that GODS feed on the belief of their followers
remove the feast
and gods tend to fade away
....
perhaps
GODS do indeed need the defense as well as the belief offered by their followers.
perhaps
belief is the only food and feast of the gods

rod
p.s.
The 1st line is an obvious rip from Homer

[Merlion]

This statue is returning to NYC. This time no problem is expected. The difference seems to be timing and location.

Chocolate Jesus Sculpture Returns to NYC (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hOc15FhwA17xg2tVZi931lDQcUIAD8SB2H1O0)

Oct 17, 2007, NEW YORK (AP) — "My Sweet Lord," an anatomically correct milk chocolate sculpture of Jesus Christ that infuriated Catholics before its April unveiling was canceled, returns Oct. 27 to a Chelsea art gallery, its creator said Tuesday.

This time, artist Cosimo Cavallaro said he expects the public exhibit to proceed without a problem.....

Cavallaro, who received death threats before the April show was canceled, said the vast majority of his mail was in support of his six-foot piece.....

The last show was criticized for its timing and its location. The exhibit, in a gallery visible to passers-by on a Manhattan street, was set to open one day after Palm Sunday and four days before Christians marked the crucifixion of Christ on Good Friday.

The Catholic League, which led the charge against "My Sweet Lord" back then, said the change to the Proposition Gallery and the exhibition's new opening date would keep it from calling for another shutdown of the sculpture's showing. ....

The sculpture is actually a new version of "My Sweet Lord," created with 200 pounds of chocolate over three days. The original was stored in a Brooklyn facility where mice nibbled away at its hands, ears, nose and feet, forcing Cavallaro to toss the original and recast the sculpture.

[suburbanartists]

Sculptures of jesus are such an easy, tired cop out. Here's an idea.... create someting on your own that is worthy of attention. Oh you can't? Well than better make something religious, Now you're an attention grubbing copy cat unworthy of my dog's leg lift.

Sorry just not interested in any of this stuff. Boring...

[evaldart]

Well, I've burnt enough cranial atoms on the Nude Chocolate Christ. But I believe that anything can provide inspiration...I couldn't be less religious but there are certainly bible stories that I would have a dandy ol' time addressing in sculpture...for instance Goliath, he needs more art attention, and I find him a far more provocative character (though less complex and ironic than his diminutive nemesis) with great heroic or anti-heroic potential. I would LOVE to make a giant, scrap-metal Goliath.

[GlennT]

I would LOVE to make a giant, scrap-metal Goliath.

A companion piece to your junk-food fueled autobiographical piece, " Atilla the Hungry"!

As for the chocolate work, enough and too much has already been said.

[GlennT]

Sculptures of jesus are such an easy, tired cop out. Here's an idea.... create someting on your own that is worthy of attention. Oh you can't? Well than better make something religious, Now you're an attention grubbing copy cat unworthy of my dog's leg lift.

Sorry just not interested in any of this stuff. Boring...

In as much as religion is just as much a part of human society and culture as anything else, and probably the oldest element as well, you might as well be intellectually honest and apply the same attitude towards sculpture depicting sports, politics, business, entertainment, teaching, or anything referencing human interactions in general. Or is it just mankind turning attention towards God that becomes a topic unworthy of an artist?

[suburbanartists]

In as much as religion is just as much a part of human society and culture as anything else, and probably the oldest element as well, you might as well be intellectually honest and apply the same attitude towards sculpture depicting sports, politics, business, entertainment, teaching, or anything referencing human interactions in general. Or is it just mankind turning attention towards God that becomes a topic unworthy of an artist?

Glenn T
I was refering to obvious, blatent religious symbols.
Jesus and the cross are the 2 Biggest Religious Icons in history and maybe Budda. Frankly it's nothing new and is very tired for me. That's my opinion.

And yes i guess i do have the same attituted to sports, politics, entertainment....etc. when the artist is basically coping the iconic images in those fields. For me the artist has to change the image or its context dramatically to be worthwile.

But the bottom line remains that if you want guaranted attention you do a cross or jesus.

Do you honesty feel that's not like shooting ducks in a barrel?

[suburbanartists]

And Eval, I would love to see a Heavy Metal Goliath and Sloth battle it out.

p.s. Sorry for continuing on with this thread.

I'm done. Sub Heethan

[Merlion]

This is from the NY Times.

I am curious. If you are an interested art collector, how would you keep and display the chocolate statues after you buy them?

A Guide to Recognizing Your Chocolate Saints (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/a-guide-to-recognizing-your-chocolate-saints/?hp)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/10/18/nyregion/18jesuses.span.jpg
Cosimo Cavallaro’s chocolate sculptures.
From left: Our Lady of Grace, St. Anthony, St. Augustine, St. Firman, St. Michael, St. Jude, St. Francis, “Our Sweet Lord” and “Mary of Jesus.”

Oct 18, 2007, The chocolate Jesus is back, and he’s got company. ...

Cosimo Cavallaro, a Canadian artist, whose life-size sculpture of a nude Jesus caused a bit of an uproar in March when it was put on display in Midtown during Holy Week, has a new show at an art gallery in Chelsea. Joining the figure of Jesus are life-size chocolate sculptures of Our Lady of Grace, “Mary of Jesus,” St. Anthony, St. Augustine, St. Firman, St. Francis, St. Jude and St. Michael.

The show, “Chocolate Saints…Sweet Jesus,” will be on view from Oct. 27 to Nov. 24 at the Proposition gallery in Chelsea....

Ronald Sosinski, the co-owner and director of the Proposition gallery ... noted that Mr. Cavallaro’s work is in fact quite traditional — in their style and figurative representation, they indeed, they resemble neoclassical sculptures from the Italian Renaissance.

“The artist has always worked in food,” Mr. Sosinski said ....

The saints will be made in editions of five; each will be priced around $2,500. The Jesus work will be made in a smaller edition, and the price will be greater, but has not been set, Mr. Sosinski said.

There is no government financing involved in the exhibition, so it is unlikely to generate the uproars ...

[racine]

eat them. store them in the firmament

[GlennT]

I am curious. If you are an interested art collector, how would you keep and display the chocolate statues after you buy them?



How about this question: If these were produced in bronze, resin, or carved in stone, would there have been any discussion here about them?

[Landseer]

How about this question: If these were produced in bronze, resin, or carved in stone, would there have been any discussion here about them?


And if Merlion didn't get his kicks posting in this old thread about this jesus crap to annoy me again, we wouldn't be here. Either you are daft or you have alzheimers and totally forgot the last several threads o this topic already.

Me, I wouldn't display them, I'd burn the damn things.

[Merlion]

I'm sorry Landseer that you get so annoy about this. I mean it. Do click to jump into another thread and don't comment any further on this.

[Merlion]

The picture below, taken in this new art Gallery, comes from another source linked here (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/10/27/2007-10-27_chocolate_jesus_statue_finds_sweet_space.html). I note the chocolate sculpture is now placed horizontal on a pedestal and not vertical on a cross.

Chocolate Jesus Sculpture Makes Gallery Debut (http://www.1010wins.com/Chocolate-Jesus-Sculpture-Makes-Gallery-Debut/1141557)

27 Oct 2007. NEW YORK (AP) -- A controversial chocolate sculpture of Jesus Christ went on exhibit Saturday at a Manhattan gallery.

Artist Cosimo Cavallaro says he's "anxious" after "six months of worry and anticipation." ....

The Catholic League says it still doesn't approve of the piece but won't protest this time. The group says the change of date and location makes the exhibit less offensive.

The new exhibit is at the Proposition Gallery. Co-owner Ronald Sosinski says "the idea is not to do something sacriligeous."

The show also features a set of chocolate Catholic icons created by Cavallaro

http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/10/27/amd_cavallaro.jpg

[racine]

old english saying..... 'never trust men with beards'.... ...?

[evaldart]

It occurred to me that "Nude Chocolate Christ" has to be the name of a punk-rock band. Maybe I'll have to do it. I'm thinking Misfits meets Sonic youth. Do they let 43 year olds play in rock bands? Oh well...NCC comin to your town!

[jOe~]

No problem. Coat yourself in chocolate and play nude--art rock band. Age limit??? How long is Keith Richards gonna keep at it?

[StevenW]

Chocolate is an interesting and complex medium and not at all easy to mold or sculpt properly. I'm curious to know the brand, Calabeut is one of the finer ones from Belgium and is often used by pastry chefs in fine dining establishments, but there are also several outstanding Venezuelan ones.

Merlions #100 shows a properly tempered chocolate, melted over a light steam bath reaching 110-115 F. and having cocoa butter incorporated and folded into the chocolate to achieve a high gloss. The other images appear to be raw chocolate, demonstrating a sorrowful lack of proper understanding for the medium. It's easy when working with high volumes to scorch or seize the chocolate resulting in a lost batch and continuous folding and close attention to temperature are required. It's much harder to work chocolate than clay in fact, but not as demanding as sanding stone or grinding metal to achieve a nice finish.

[Merlion]

Thand for the info about making glossy chocolate art, StevenW. It is interestng.

Do you sometimes make them?

Does the gloss shine go off after displaying the sculpture for long periods?

[StevenW]

The gloss should last as long as the chocolate does, up to a year or two under carefully controlled conditions. The enemies of chocolate are humidity, temperature, light and well, air will attack the surface eventually just like anything else. Water is the universal solvent and will eventually wear everything away and it is chocolates worst enemy. Chocolate is soft, but crisp and brittle in its raw state and contains cocoa oils, which will congeal or seize if overheated or mixed with water. Chocolate is relatively easy to heat and pour into a mold, but hard to sculpt in raw form using traditional clay type knives. Pastry Chefs have what is called a "Garde Manger" (pronounced: Gar-Mo-shay) kit or garnishing tools, which nowadays are very sophisticated and specialized and for chocolate they will use silicon mats and specialized knives and very fine wires to sculpt chocolate and then use hand torches to weld or flash treat the surfaces very quickly. Traditional knives will scrape and scar and bruise chocolate turning the surface white so very, very sharp knives are preferred. I haven't done much work with chocolate myself, though I did do many ice sculptures at one time for weddings and special occasions and such.. :)

[Mr. Malloy]

I have wondered about food sculpture. Reminds me of that English girl (I forgot her name) that did an entire room installation made of bread. baked bread table chairs all of it. cool stuff. When it comes to chocolate. I can hardly eat it without loosing it to melt on my fingers or in pocket etc. and is there any concern with the born-into-servitude little children that endure rape and hellish lifestyles to bring you chocolate products from the THREE BIG Chocolate companies in the U.S.? I hate to sound political but chocolate is now like diamonds , All paid for with blood. other peoples' blood who were sacrificed for the big evil companies.

[StevenW]

Hershey and Nestle and erm,.. Ghiredelli?

I don't understand the connection to rape and all that, can you ellaborate a little?

Just curious to know your thoughts.

Steven