Who Draws Better...

[Bill Harsey]

...Sculptors or painters?

[GlennT]

As a general rule I would say that painters draw better than sculptors. A painter needs to be able to draw well to paint well, whereas a sculptor should be able to, but is not dependant upon that skill.

Two of the best sculptor/draftsmen I can think of are Michelanelo and Bernini, yet both were painters as well. Still, the draftmanship of Raphael, DaVinci, Rubens,Bougeureau, Prudhon, etc etc I think is superior.

If you are inquiring about drawing in this current age, it may be more of a toss up.

GlennT

[Bill Harsey]

Let me define "better", the work that makes you pause, stops you dead in your tracks, surprises you in ways that haven't happened in years, or ever.


How often do we see this?
Probably not very often, I (we?) get pretty jaded and after seeing so much quit looking.

Who draws that makes you look and see again? That's part of what I mean by better.

[GlennT]

Bill: Given your definition of " draws better" I would have to say Whistler, particulary in his pastels, Frank Brangwyn, particulary in his etchings, Leon Auguste L'Hermitte, and Tiepolo, both father and son.

GlennT

[Bill Harsey]

Bill: Given your definition of " draws better" I would have to say Whistler, particulary in his pastels, Frank Brangwyn, particulary in his etchings, Leon Auguste L'Hermitte, and Tiepolo, both father and son.

GlennT
Glenn,
You've given me homework to do.
Thanks!

[G. Murdoch]

Tiepolo, Caravaggio, and my friend Dave.

Graham

[Bill Harsey]

G. Murdoch,
I'd like to see Daves drawings.

Permission to let this question evolve?

Can you tell the difference between drawings by sculptors and painters?


In past threads here some have stated they don't even draw. Hmmm. haven't thought of trying that method yet.

[ironman]

Hi, I think that you can sometimes tell the difference between the drawings of painters and sculptors. Sculptors tend to draw a more 3 dimensional image. I think they pay more attention to light and shadow, which of course gives a more 3D image in the drawing.
My favorites,
Michelangelo, Tiepolo, and almost every other artist of the renaissance. They learned their craft back then and drawing was an important part of it.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[G. Murdoch]

I agree with Jeff, the drawings of sculptors tend to have more mass than the painters, of the limited number I have paid any real attention to.

Graham

[Bill Harsey]

Jeff, Graham,
This is close to what I'm thinking, You will have probably said it better than me. Drawings by sculptors seem to exhibit a more direct strength. I'm not using this as a gender specific term but rather as evidence of spirit, trueness of vision.

If I had to argue this case before a court of art law, I would probably fail because some "painting lawyer" :eek: could present overwhelming evidence that I'm not at this moment prepared to counter.

The hardest thing I have ever done is use words to describe art. I've noted the folks here are very pretty good in this area. Thank you for for this.

[donnadodsonarti]

I think sculptors draw better or simpler because all we see are lines, the essential marks that make up a form, space, volume, idea, object or feeling.

[ironman]

Hi, I don't necessarily think that sculptors draw better, just more three dimensionally. That's certainly not because "all we see are lines", but that we see the light and shadow which give a drawing 3D volume.
There are NO lines!
Most people learn to draw by line, but if you can learn by drawing shapes of light and shadow you're way ahead of the game.
One sculptor who drew in line and also very flat (not much shading) was Rodin. Maybe he was just trying to be true to the 2D picture plane.
Have a great day,
Jeff

[donnadodsonarti]

I disagree- not all sculptors draw the same- some just see lines- and what are lines but connecting 2 dots and what are planes planes but connecting 3 dots- i agree its based in geometry and the material gives you the form- why else would you be a sculptor-but this doesnt speak to emotion or color- two more essential tools in the sculptors toolbox...

[Thatch]

Oil painter or water colorist? Additive or subtractive? Realist or non objectivist? Too many choices and too many styles and way too many reasons why. So I would say , yes.

Thatch

[Aaron Schroeder]

When I was younger, I had a firm idea about what constituted a better drawing but as I've gotten older my definitions have expanded to the point that a drawing is just a drawing, a document of a time and place and the state of mind that an artist is in. In my mind all the pieces of paper and 2D surfaces come together to form one vast picture plane to which we all contribute a few marks. In that light, to judge one drawing is to judge them all. However, it's impossible to see the whole picture and some parts definetly hold more interest for every viewer.

For me a better drawing is what my clients ask for before they committ to a sculptural idea and write me a check. This doesn't happen as often for image makers. I'd have to say as a professional sculptor I find myself having to make better drawings. Usually this means to scale with enough detail, so my client can see what they are paying for. I might have a subjective idea of what a better drawing looks like but my clients seem to know the difference between a drawing and a better drawing. I just let them judge, it makes my life easier.

So to answer your question, Sculptors make better drawings, We have to.

[dwright]

I'll second that. Also I have noticed that sculptors who draw well have a definite edge over those who can't...in getting the commission in the end.

[cmustard]

I would say that there are some sculptors who draw better than some painters ......and some painters who draw better than some sculptors.

It's almost a "who's dad is smarter" question, followed by the pursuing arguments.

[Tlouis]

This is the most cogent post yet.

Lou

[G. Murdoch]

I think sculptors draw better or simpler because all we see are lines, the essential marks that make up a form, space, volume, idea, object or feeling.


Try this exercise:

Draw something, anything, rendering only the lines.

Now draw the same thing rendering only the shadows.

The drawing consisting of the shadows will have greater mass, depth, and volume than the cookie cutter line drawing.

Graham

[Bill Harsey]

My thinking is that it takes both lines and shading to define the surfaces and volumes that sculptors have to be sensitive to as part of the work.
Personally, a sculptors drawing can be the finished work, not just a roadmap or blueprint to the final goal which can get interesting.

citing some case study of sculpture drawing problems,
A few years ago I had a combined sculpture-architectural iron job involving a complex pattern of many sculptural shapes that never repeated themselves but all had to relate. I was asked to submit a full sized drawing to get the client to begin funding the project. This was a reasonable request.
This drawing was 27 feet in length by four feet tall. About midway through the work the client would arrive at the studio and judge the steel work to the drawing. If something hadn't followed the drawing exactly, it was judged as a problem. The design solutions I was finding exceeded the drawing (in my humble opinion), so about 5:00 in the afternoon I would quit the steel work and re-do the drawing according to the days progress because the owner would arrive around 5:30 each day. When finished, everyone was happy and the finished project accepted with zero reservations.
The finished work was better than the original drawings.

[Aaron Schroeder]

I use drawing to communicate. I seldom worry about whether or not I'm making a better drawing, I'm concerned with whether or not the person I'm communicating with will " get it ". Most of my drawings function as contracts, I include descriptive text, prices, mathmatical notations, dimensions and a variety of visual clues such as arrows and boundary marks. Anything to communicate the 3/D and material nature of the idea I'm trying to communicate. I seldom worry about shading and temporal lighting. I'll use shading but mostly to seperate one portion of a drawing from another. I've found that it's easy to confuse people if an image is developed to far. Sometimes less drawing works better than more. My idea of a better drawing is one that really helps me when it comes time to actually make it. My most useful drawings aren't good drawings from an image makers point of view. I like isometric line drawings, drawn to scale with notations. The perspective appears unatural and the images seldom address lighting, emotion and all the formal elements of a better drawing but as a working drawing that I can use as a reference point to direct my actions into making an object on a larger scale in various materials with various surface treatments , they just can't be beat. I learned most of these skills in high school shop class. My university art classes totally overlooked the absolute necessity of producing good, working, sellable,drawings as a mode of communication in the artist/client relationship. I haven't sold a drawing since undergraduate school but my drawings have sold over a half million dollars of commissioned work. Do I make better drawings ? Probably only in the eyes of my clients and those who want to make something for some one else.I think Drawings made in the creative process of making sculpture and objects in general are a catagory unto themselves and are worth discussing in this forum. Instead of " Do sculptors draw better ", how about " what's a better drawing for a sculptor "? I'd like to hear from you folks about what you've found to work because I'd like to learn more tricks of the trade.

[donnadodsonarti]

i use drawings to work out the possibilities of a composition- sometimes felshing out details that may or may not find their way into the finished piece- but what i find carving direct in wood is that in the end its the material that defines the form as the form emerges from the material-and there is another series of drawings i do that are expressive- which i sometimes want to incorporate into the form of my sculptures- but sometimes i feel that my drawings can stand on their own as works of art...

[Bill Harsey]

After just finishing sorting out over a decades worth of drawings here (to find the source of a concept) I'm noting that technical ability has little to do with good drawing let alone "better".

Direct work in a clay is a kind of drawing.

In woodcarving, the edged tool makes the drawn lines and this evidence of craft is often a desired part of the finished work.

[desertrock]

My drawings are predominantly line drawings with some contour lines and minimal shading, just to give ME the recall of the mentally visualized shape, when the drawing was made, once I start carving. However, my commitment to learn to draw better using shading for more depth and scale will soon be a reality as I am spending 8 days (8 days) away from home with in-laws for the holidays (where's the flu when you need it). If my drawing skills don't improve, I will have a slew of new ideas for future work.
Pending that trip, I will come back after Xmas and give you my answer.

Mark

[Bill Harsey]

My drawings are predominantly line drawings with some contour lines and minimal shading, just to give ME the recall of the mentally visualized shape, when the drawing was made, once I start carving. However, my commitment to learn to draw better using shading for more depth and scale will soon be a reality as I am spending 8 days (8 days) away from home with in-laws for the holidays (where's the flu when you need it). If my drawing skills don't improve, I will have a slew of new ideas for future work.
Pending that trip, I will come back after Xmas and give you my answer.

Mark
Anything that commits shape to memory is a good tool.
8 days with the in-laws? Your going to return a modern master. :D

[fused]

I think this is kind of a silly question, because artists of either tradition who focus on drawing skills
can knock you over with their images, but I do like this thought from Bill Harsey...
"Anything that commits shape to memory is a good tool."

[Bill Harsey]

fused,
Of course it was a silly question but the answers have not been.
also, Thanks.
Bill

[Bill Harsey]

fused,
Of course it was a silly question but the answers have not been.
also, Thanks.
Bill
Said another way, the answers have been more important than the question.
Bill

[evaldart]

Remember that drawing is merely mark-making, a physical action, the placing of one material upon another in a fashion that agrees with our goals for that action. Drawing and sculpting are not nearly as different as one might think. It usually wieghs less and takes up less space and requires fewer tools and less hand-strength...but , aside from it being short one dimension...Art itself is not bothered by their differences. Usually sculptors can draw pretty well while painters cannot sculpt. Other than that, a value judgement about whose is better is not a resolvable matter.

[Bill Harsey]

evaldart,
Yes drawing is merely mark making and sculpture is just shaping stuff or finding things and labeling them so.

Most people have some grasp of words but that doesn't mean they write or have written anything we want to read.